Why us

The KKW is getting away from anything that has to do with SD principle and going straight for the sport aspect as a whole, they are giving or should I say charging for people to get a dan and up to third without even testing just send in the payment and your resume and you will become a TKD KKW holder of a certificate. This is what I mean by selling out. I will get playing the game for the ones that want it or seem to need it.
 
terryl965 said:
The KKW is getting away from anything that has to do with SD principle and going straight for the sport aspect as a whole, they are giving or should I say charging for people to get a dan and up to third without even testing just send in the payment and your resume and you will become a TKD KKW holder of a certificate. This is what I mean by selling out. I will get playing the game for the ones that want it or seem to need it.
Click to expand...
I am sure that those that study at KKW are really good at sport and SD. However it is up to you and or your master to make sure you learn what you want regardless of the KKW.

The KKW does not tell you what to teach nor do they demand that you teach the way they do. That is up to you. They only document and issue you a piece of paper that states you have a BlackBelt.

The DMV does the same thing. The give you a DL as long as you can pass a simple test. Even if you can drive or not.

Teach and learn what you feel is best for you. If you want to compete to represent your teachings and learnings then pay $35 to join USAT and prove that yours is superior. Nothing or no one is stopping anyone from learning or teaching what they want.

To me there is no issue.

Taekwon!!
 
terryl965 said:
The KKW is getting away from anything that has to do with SD principle and going straight for the sport aspect as a whole, they are giving or should I say charging for people to get a dan and up to third without even testing just send in the payment and your resume and you will become a TKD KKW holder of a certificate. This is what I mean by selling out. I will get playing the game for the ones that want it or seem to need it.
Click to expand...
Okay, and I believe that that is a problem, but what is the specific KKW curriculum with regards to SD? Is it a thorough and comprehensive curriculum that instructors may 'teach it if ya wanna' or is it just cobbled together collection of moves to answer some scenarios on the street, or is there actually no SD content at all?

And has there been SD content that has been slowly diminished?

Daniel
 
ATC said:
I am sure that those that study at KKW are really good at sport and SD. However it is up to you and or your master to make sure you learn what you want regardless of the KKW.

The KKW does not tell you what to teach nor do they demand that you teach the way they do. That is up to you. They only document and issue you a piece of paper that states you have a BlackBelt.

The DMV does the same thing. The give you a DL as long as you can pass a simple test. Even if you can drive or not.

Teach and learn what you feel is best for you. If you want to compete to represent your teachings and learnings then pay $35 to join USAT and prove that yours is superior. Nothing or no one is stopping anyone from learning or teaching what they want.

To me there is no issue.

Taekwon!!
Click to expand...

Following your DMV comparison...which, by the way, seems to be a good one...

Have you ever gotten behind or in front of one of those kids that the DMV just issued a DL to? I know I have...

I absolutely hate getting on the road with some of these highschool kids that have just gotten their liscence and are driving vehicles that they have no idea how to handle. I hate it because more often than not I'm driving with my pregnant wife in the car, and I worry more now about being in a wreck than I used to.

The point is, if the KKW is simply charging a fee to hand out blackbelts, how is that in any way, shape, form, or fashion any different than what Ashida Kim does with his Ninja books? If what you're saying is correct, they simply look at your resume and go by what's on a sheet of paper.

If the KKW is going to represent the art of TKD, then that's what they need to represent. Otherwise, whatever it is that they've come up needs to be named something else. TKD is about SD. Pure and simple. It's not about sport.

That's not to say that someone who is involved in SD shouldn't compete in competitions. But I don't think that an org should be allowed to almost completely change and art to the point where it doesn't hold any SD value at all just so that it's more compliant to safety rules and regs, and so that it's more enjoyable to watch.

They may not enforce the teaching of whatever it is they do, but if you are going to compete in their competitions...i.e. the Olympics...then you have to play by their rules...which are absurd.

For example...I'm a blackbelt in ITF TKD, but I want to be KKW certified so that I can compete in the Olympics. Technically speaking, all I have to do is have that piece of paper saying that I'm KKW certified to compete. The catch is that once I get out there to train, all of the techniques that I've been taught to defend myself effectively are not allowed...all except high, flashy kicks, and I'm not encouraged at all to use my hands for anything...not to block, and certainly not to punch.

So, what's happened to me being able to compete in the Olympics? I'm a blackbelt in TKD...so why is what I'm learning not acceptable at that level of competition? I've competed in tournements before using the techniques that I'm taught in class...using techniques that are taught from the core cirriculum of TKD.

What if I'm a better puncher than I am a kicker? Are my punches no less effective against an opponent than kicks are? Are they trying to say that only techniques that look like they are from a movie are effective? What kind of message is it sending to the public who have never taken TKD to see 2 people bobbing in place with their hands at their waist, and only kicking to the head?

So how can you take the core out of the art and still call it by its name?

Sorry, but there's more of an issue here than simply handing out a sheet of paper for a belt...and that in itself is an issue to me. Exactly how much is the KKW certification worth, if all they're certifying is the fact that I say that I have a blackbelt, that I say that I've been involved in TKD for x number of years, and that all I can do with this piece of paper they would give me is try to get into the Olympics?

Maybe I would feel a little more compelled to be involved with the orginization if they at the very least could support the core of what everyone involved in TKD should be learning, which is SD.

By putting the KKW stamp of approval on the Olympic rules for TKD, and by declaring themselves the "governing body" of TKD, they are painting a rather craptastic picture of what TKD can do for someone in terms of SD.

Thanks but no thanks. I think I would rather ride my bicycle than drive on a road that allows everyone to drive with no standards.
 
Teaching SD instead of sport does not get you those nice big trophies people give out at sporting competitions.
 
igillman said:
Teaching SD instead of sport does not get you those nice big trophies people give out at sporting competitions.
Click to expand...

Whats more important....teaching self defense or getting a stupid trophy for playing a game of tag?????

Of course the trophy is more important. :D (just joking).
 
Twin Fist said:
if the question is
"why does the KKW or the WTF do...."

the answer is always the same

money
Click to expand...
A simple answer, but sometimes simple is the best. The Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federations are just what they appear to be: large organizations. Large organizations are, by their very nature, money driven.

That is neither good nor bad: it simply is.

The big questions are:

Do they provide tools that a school owner can utilize to the benefit of their students?

and

Do the cost of those tools outweigh the benefit?

or

Are better tools available that will achieve either the same or better results without the cost of being part of the organization?

So many of those answers depend upon the training focus of the school. But make no mistake, TF is correct: the KKW and WTF are cash driven.

They need to be to survive and to promote TKD at the level that they do, but unfortunately, cash driven usually means compromises in the quality of the end product.

Daniel
 
Daniel Sullivan said:
A simple answer, but sometimes simple is the best. The Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federations are just what they appear to be: large organizations. Large organizations are, by their very nature, money driven.

That is neither good nor bad: it simply is.

The big questions are:

Do they provide tools that a school owner can utilize to the benefit of their students?

and

Do the cost of those tools outweigh the benefit?

or

Are better tools available that will achieve either the same or better results without the cost of being part of the organization?

So many of those answers depend upon the training focus of the school. But make no mistake, TF is correct: the KKW and WTF are cash driven.

They need to be to survive and to promote TKD at the level that they do, but unfortunately, cash driven usually means compromises in the quality of the end product.

Daniel
Click to expand...

The problem I have with this is misrepresentation. So, I agree with everything that you said, except for where you say that it's neither good nor bad, that it simply is.

The fact that KKW and WTF are cash driven has pushed them farther and farther away from what the martial art was supposed to be for.

People will pay money to get a chance to compete in the Olympics. That's a fact. They will pay money for the training to compete in the Olympics. That's also a fact. So it's understood that the KKW and WTF do what they do because of money.

But, whenever people who see TKD in the Olympics watch the matches, what they're seeing is not TKD as the SD art, but rather a watered down version that has little to no SD value. Now, if someone were not familier with the fact that WTF and KKW are associated with sport TKD, then they're not going to know that what they're seeing isn't what is taught in terms of SD.

To be a little clearer....

When I started TKD back in '93, I didn't know that TKD was in the Olympics. I heard about it in 1996, after Herb Perez began appearing all over Century catalogs. I couldn't find where the TKD events were televised, and the internet was a relatively new thing around my neck of the woods at that time, so we couldn't afford a computer to have access, and the library computers couldn't stream videos...besides, I wouldn't have known where to look for those videos at the time.

Anyway, I didn't realize until the 2000 Olympics that the TKD event is what it is...a few high kicks with no blocking and no hand techniques. I watched in horror as the commentators talked about these guys being "blackbelts" in one of the most respected martial arts out there. I watched, and I realized that if I were to meet one of these guys in a dark alley, they better hope they don't use the techniques that I was seeing before my eyes.

And that's the point, to me at least. When someone who isn't familier with the background and history of TKD sees what's being presented in the Olympics, they have to wonder exactly what we do in class all day...and I can't blame them. In my opinion, it's giving TKD a bad name...especially considering that I have worked hard to get to where I am, and I know that I'm never going to be able to compete in the Olympics...not with such a restrictive ruleset. It alienates those of us that have practiced the art for the purpose of SD...and it doesn't make sense, considering that there used to be tournements that were perfectly acceptable to use the SD techniques that we're taught in.
 
BrandonLucas said:
The problem I have with this is misrepresentation. So, I agree with everything that you said, except for where you say that it's neither good nor bad, that it simply is.

The fact that KKW and WTF are cash driven has pushed them farther and farther away from what the martial art was supposed to be for.
Click to expand...
I agree with your entire post, including what I have quoted. I just want to clarify:

All businesses are cash driven. What I meant was that the cash driven part is neither good nor bad, but simply is. How an organization handles the cash driven aspect is another matter entirely, which in the KKW's case has been addressed numerous times in many threads and post.

Look at GM and look at Ferrari. Not a bust on GM, but the integrity of their cars has waxed and waned over the years, while Ferrari has for the most part remained very true to the vision of its founder. Yet, both companies are cash driven.

That is how I mean that the cash driven aspect is neither good nor bad.:)

Daniel
 
Daniel Sullivan said:
I agree with your entire post, including what I have quoted. I just want to clarify:

All businesses are cash driven. What I meant was that the cash driven part is neither good nor bad, but simply is. How an organization handles the cash driven aspect is another matter entirely, which in the KKW's case has been addressed numerous times in many threads and post.

Look at GM and look at Ferrari. Not a bust on GM, but the integrity of their cars has waxed and waned over the years, while Ferrari has for the most part remained very true to the vision of its founder. Yet, both companies are cash driven.

That is how I mean that the cash driven aspect is neither good nor bad.:)

Daniel
Click to expand...

Seriously, dude, why didn't you say so....geez...

:)
 
BrandonLucas said:
Following your DMV comparison...which, by the way, seems to be a good one...

Have you ever gotten behind or in front of one of those kids that the DMV just issued a DL to? I know I have...

I absolutely hate getting on the road with some of these highschool kids that have just gotten their liscence and are driving vehicles that they have no idea how to handle. I hate it because more often than not I'm driving with my pregnant wife in the car, and I worry more now about being in a wreck than I used to.

The point is, if the KKW is simply charging a fee to hand out blackbelts, how is that in any way, shape, form, or fashion any different than what Ashida Kim does with his Ninja books? If what you're saying is correct, they simply look at your resume and go by what's on a sheet of paper.

If the KKW is going to represent the art of TKD, then that's what they need to represent. Otherwise, whatever it is that they've come up needs to be named something else. TKD is about SD. Pure and simple. It's not about sport.

That's not to say that someone who is involved in SD shouldn't compete in competitions. But I don't think that an org should be allowed to almost completely change and art to the point where it doesn't hold any SD value at all just so that it's more compliant to safety rules and regs, and so that it's more enjoyable to watch.

They may not enforce the teaching of whatever it is they do, but if you are going to compete in their competitions...i.e. the Olympics...then you have to play by their rules...which are absurd.

For example...I'm a blackbelt in ITF TKD, but I want to be KKW certified so that I can compete in the Olympics. Technically speaking, all I have to do is have that piece of paper saying that I'm KKW certified to compete. The catch is that once I get out there to train, all of the techniques that I've been taught to defend myself effectively are not allowed...all except high, flashy kicks, and I'm not encouraged at all to use my hands for anything...not to block, and certainly not to punch.

So, what's happened to me being able to compete in the Olympics? I'm a blackbelt in TKD...so why is what I'm learning not acceptable at that level of competition? I've competed in tournements before using the techniques that I'm taught in class...using techniques that are taught from the core cirriculum of TKD.

What if I'm a better puncher than I am a kicker? Are my punches no less effective against an opponent than kicks are? Are they trying to say that only techniques that look like they are from a movie are effective? What kind of message is it sending to the public who have never taken TKD to see 2 people bobbing in place with their hands at their waist, and only kicking to the head?

So how can you take the core out of the art and still call it by its name?

Sorry, but there's more of an issue here than simply handing out a sheet of paper for a belt...and that in itself is an issue to me. Exactly how much is the KKW certification worth, if all they're certifying is the fact that I say that I have a blackbelt, that I say that I've been involved in TKD for x number of years, and that all I can do with this piece of paper they would give me is try to get into the Olympics?

Maybe I would feel a little more compelled to be involved with the orginization if they at the very least could support the core of what everyone involved in TKD should be learning, which is SD.

By putting the KKW stamp of approval on the Olympic rules for TKD, and by declaring themselves the "governing body" of TKD, they are painting a rather craptastic picture of what TKD can do for someone in terms of SD.

Thanks but no thanks. I think I would rather ride my bicycle than drive on a road that allows everyone to drive with no standards.
Click to expand...
I undersand your points and you have many good ones. All I can say is that if you want to compete in the Olympics then you want to follow the rules set by the WTF, not KKW.

Yes it seems easy to get certified by the KKW as you state but then again that is left up to your Master to decide really. It is your master that will be testing you and promoting you not the KKW.

As for the sport, it is just that. You do not have to compete in it. there is boxing, judo, fencing and a gambit of others to compete in but all have there own rules. If you feel that you are better with your hands than your feet then there is kick boxing, or MMA.

The cool thing is that you can do whatever you want and still practice what you love.

For me this is what there is for now so I do it. It does not stop me from doing anything else and I still practice may art with the SD aspect.
 
You need to attend my seminar:

The Twin Fist method of keeping it short, sweet, and to the point

reg fee 49.99 payable with paypal,credit card or checks written on the backs of farm animals......


Daniel Sullivan said:
Come on! You know I can't say anything of substance in less than two full paragraphs plus several multi paragraph follow up postings.:D

Daniel
Click to expand...
 
terryl965 said:
Why is it the USAT and the KKW feel they need to make TKD even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete Art side and S.D. side of TKD? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.
Click to expand...

I don't know Terry. I just came back from a Krav Maga class. While I feel their technique is crude and lacks power (at least the teacher does not correct poor technique or demonstrate it alot and thus alot of their strikes are not that powerful) the class is VIOLENT. The self defense is good and they have more contact in 10 min that a TKD class has in a year.

Way to many people take the 'art' as being in front of the 'martial' when it's the other way around.

Deaf
 
Deaf Smith said:
I don't know Terry. I just came back from a Krav Maga class. While I feel their technique is crude and lacks power (at least the teacher does not correct poor technique or demonstrate it alot and thus alot of their strikes are not that powerful) the class is VIOLENT. The self defense is good and they have more contact in 10 min that a TKD class has in a year.

Way to many people take the 'art' as being in front of the 'martial' when it's the other way around.

Deaf
Click to expand...

Good point, but there are still SD principle TKD schools out there.
 
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