why train unusable techs

[ap Oweyn]

I guess there are two answers to this question. One of them's already been covered pretty thoroughly. People train for different reasons. Personal accomplishment, fitness, etc. And I don't think it's particularly helpful to say "if you want fitness, join a gym." (Not that anybody has in this conversation) People can train for whatever reasons they choose. And if they want something that keeps them fit but yields minimum combative advantages, that's their choice. (I think it'd be best if they understood that choice, so I'm still all for people KNOWING the limitations of what they're doing.)

The other point is this: EVERY technique is unusable until you've trained it. Think back to the early days of MMA. Everybody started saying "kicking is unusable." (Especially high kicking.) But now that MMA has been around, people have figured out how to work those things back into their arsenals. They've learned the timing, range, and combinations necessary to make those techniques work. And lo and behold, people get caught with kicks routinely that several years ago would've seemed really implausible.

So while I don't think that every technique is viable, I do think that more techniques are viable than we generally acknowledge.


Stuart

 

[VSanhodo]

Hmmmmmmm

My answer to this is simple. Who am I to tell someone a certain technique is no good on the street? I have always felt its not the technique but the person.
What may work great for one person may not work for another. Me persaonlly I teach things that perhaps I would not be comfortable with personally but I still teach them it is then up to the individual to use them or not, not me.

thanks

san

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Hmmmmmmm

My answer to this is simple. Who am I to tell someone a certain technique is no good on the street? I have always felt its not the technique but the person.
What may work great for one person may not work for another. Me persaonlly I teach things that perhaps I would not be comfortable with personally but I still teach them it is then up to the individual to use them or not, not me.

thanks

san

You are a rare breed. I was just talking about this while teaching today how lots of instructors wont share things just because they cannot/chose not to do them. I salute you.

 

[ave_turuta]

"I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street"

Pride and tradition. I have gone to other Martial Arts Schools and clubs and shown the head instructor how certain moves may not go as planned or have a high probability of failing.

I agree. I've felt this with some of the 1 steps we learn in TKD. I guess you need to imagine using them in a particular context, but on at least 2 occasions I remember thinking to myself "this would not work," not because I have some special insight, but because I also trained in judo and I know I could have countered those two specific moves very easily.

As for "usability:" again, I think it depends on the person. I guess the more a person trains, the better s/he becomes, and in any event you are only going to be able to use a handful of techniques anyway. I personally thinkn every technique has the potential to be "useful," but then again a bad fighter will most likely misuse effective techniques too.

A.T.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I agree. I've felt this with some of the 1 steps we learn in TKD. I guess you need to imagine using them in a particular context, but on at least 2 occasions I remember thinking to myself "this would not work," not because I have some special insight, but because I also trained in judo and I know I could have countered those two specific moves very easily.

As for "usability:" again, I think it depends on the person. I guess the more a person trains, the better s/he becomes, and in any event you are only going to be able to use a handful of techniques anyway. I personally thinkn every technique has the potential to be "useful," but then again a bad fighter will most likely misuse effective techniques too.

A.T.

Very true, alot of the one steps aren't actually meant to be combat applicable but are meant to show principles of TKD and possible other applications of the basics. Example, the inward crescent kick taught in some schools during 1 nad 3 steps as a block to the opponents punch. But the punch is thrown from a range that has no hope of landing just to facilitate the kick block. That cresent kick isn't meant to be used like that in a combat sense it used to the teach the CONCEPT of kick-blocking. And yes "bad fighters" misuse effective techniques. Prime example: people using an uppercut as a counter to a "shoot" without back pedaling but instead hold their ground. They land one grazing uppercut and end up on their back. Like a video instructor by the name of Marco Lala says on most of his tapes "the way is in training". Constant training of techniques don't make them effective at all. Proper training of proper execution of techniques and proper TIMING of techniques makes them effective.

 

[VSanhodo]

You are a rare breed. I was just talking about this while teaching today how lots of instructors wont share things just because they cannot/chose not to do them. I salute you.

Thank you for your kind words, you are one of a few ppl whom on this forum I have come to respect thier views and opinions. So coming from you I take your words as a compliment. Again thanks and believe when I say Ditto


San

 

[Phoenix44]

I no longer consider techniques "unusable," although some will never be my techniques of choice. I consider it expanding my repertoire, increasing my options. Maybe I wouldn't chose to fight with my back hand on my hip, but maybe I'm carrying a bag of groceries on my hip and my hand happens to be there when I have to defend myself.

Sometimes we just like the art. And SOMETIMES our instructors are missing, or failing to share, pieces of the technique that would make it more useful.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I no longer consider techniques "unusable," although some will never be my techniques of choice. I consider it expanding my repertoire, increasing my options. Maybe I wouldn't chose to fight with my back hand on my hip, but maybe I'm carrying a bag of groceries on my hip and my hand happens to be there when I have to defend myself.

Sometimes we just like the art. And SOMETIMES our instructors are missing, or failing to share, pieces of the technique that would make it more useful.

Spoken like a true kenpoist. WHAT IF anyone? LOL keep the flame burning.

 

[Phoenix44]

Spoken like a true kenpoist.

I don't get it...

 

[tshadowchaser]

Personal thought on useable/nonuseable techniques:

Just because I do not use them or have difficulty doing them dose not mean that one of my students will not find that technique his favorite. There are many things I know how to do that I might never use but that dose not make them unuseable for those to come in the future

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I don't get it...

Most Kenpoists are familiar with What if-ing their techniques. What if-ing is when you take a technique and change the situation a bit and see how to still work the technique. Example--WHAT IF I had a grocery bad stuck on one arm how would I do a two hand technique with that hand having limited/no useablility. Thought you would have gotten that. Oh well bad Assumption on my part. Live and learn.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Personal thought on useable/nonuseable techniques:

Just because I do not use them or have difficulty doing them dose not mean that one of my students will not find that technique his favorite. There are many things I know how to do that I might never use but that dose not make them unuseable for those to come in the future

Wise words. Salute.

 

[lulflo]

I think that the training of all techniques within an art is necessary so that the art is not lost. If I were to take the five best techniques from each set of say 30 in each belt, they may not be the same five that another person would pick, maybe only one of them would be good for the person I teach them to, that would be a tremendous loss after just two generations. If anything, learn the technique in its original form and then show variations of the same technique so that one can adapt it to fit or add to the art. At least get the principal of the technique down enough to teach it to another so that they may choose to use it or not. People have different body types, styles, assertiveness, etc and because I am tall and certain techniques are difficult for me, doesn't mean that when I show them to the "vertically challenged"

that they will have the same problem, it may be the best technique I can show them. Anyway, just thought I might be able to add to the thread here, sorry if it was already mentioned.

Be well Brothers and Sisters.

Larry

 

[47MartialMan]

As strange as tactics in practice sessions may seem "unusuable", they serve a purpose as others posted. The main thing to understand is that which have actual fighting purpose and general training purpose.

 

[MJS]

I think that the training of all techniques within an art is necessary so that the art is not lost. If I were to take the five best techniques from each set of say 30 in each belt, they may not be the same five that another person would pick, maybe only one of them would be good for the person I teach them to, that would be a tremendous loss after just two generations. If anything, learn the technique in its original form and then show variations of the same technique so that one can adapt it to fit or add to the art. At least get the principal of the technique down enough to teach it to another so that they may choose to use it or not. People have different body types, styles, assertiveness, etc and because I am tall and certain techniques are difficult for me, doesn't mean that when I show them to the "vertically challenged"

that they will have the same problem, it may be the best technique I can show them. Anyway, just thought I might be able to add to the thread here, sorry if it was already mentioned.

Be well Brothers and Sisters.

Larry

Thats a good point!! I've come across my share of techs. that I would pass on doing in favor of something else. Does it mean that that tech. is not any good? Of course not. What may not work for one person, the next could find it workable for them.

Mike

 

[MJS]

WHAT IF anyone? LOL keep the flame burning.

Right on!!! Gotta love the What if-Even if!!!! And I think that those things that are often referred to as "busy work"...oh yeah, the extensions...those will definately play a part in the What/Even if phase!!!

Mike

 

[bcbernam777]

Techniques are a guiding point to a concept or fighting theory, thats all, should I become a slave to my Tan sau? No, the Tan sau instructs me on how to apply the concept of dispursing the opponants energy, this can have wider applications than my Tan sau, therefore the tan sau becomes my slave instead of VV

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Right on!!! Gotta love the What if-Even if!!!! And I think that those things that are often referred to as "busy work"...oh yeah, the extensions...those will definately play a part in the What/Even if phase!!!

Mike

I always love hearing that LOL. "The extensions are busy work". When I hear that I usually say "Well forms must be REAL busy work seeing as they're just techniques you've already learned a while ago done again as dance routine" Then I get the "YOU GOT ME LOOK" :xtrmshock ROTFLMAO. Will they ever learn?

 

[evenflow1121]

Because there is value to it for some people, not for me dont get me wrong I totally agree with the OP its completely worthless, but some people are in MA (if we can call it that) in order to learn how to throw flashy kicks, and flips and impress their friends, and have no interest in the practical aspects of martial arts. I mean think about a lot of these guys who use weapons in forms competitions and are running around kicking, and, flipping,and it is the last thing they know how to use correctly, because the least thing they focus on is the actual weapon.

Its funny I had to go back and edit this, this thread just reminded me of a story. A buddy of mine, this back some 10 yrs ago or so, got interested in the martial arts, but he lived too far away from the Kenpo School I attended. Thus, he joined this school closer to his home where the head instructor was one of these self proclaimed grandmasters. SO the guy would come up with these bizarre techniques and everytime a student would ask him, what good is it? or How effective is this? He would reply with: "Its not for you to ask questions". You just have to keep your eyes open to every little thing out there.

 

[47MartialMan]

I had one of these;

.........head instructor was one of these self proclaimed grandmasters. SO the guy would come up with these bizarre techniques and everytime a student would ask him, what good is it? or How effective is this? He would reply with: "Its not for you to ask questions". You just have to keep your eyes open to every little thing out there.

The latter being the "liitle knowledge out there" from the so-called Grand Master.