why train unusable techs

[ppko]

I am going to chime in real quick, first of all I agree that there are few unusable techniques, I believe that some techniques could be more efficient. Hand going to hip I have always pictured grabbing someone and punching with the other hand (the movement is very powerful for a grab try the turn and pull with an opponent post your results). High kicks, although I would never use them I do kick as high as I can this will help me increase my power and better my aim. I believe that a better way to word this topic may have been looking for more efficient techniques. :asian:

 

[MJS]

Why would anyone practice techs they would never/ could never use in a real life situation? I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street". Usually referring to high flashy kicks, funky footwork, some sort of tech that could never really be pulled off against a resisting opponent, hand on the hip (this ones a biggie), etc. If thats the case, why would anyone ever want to train in it? When I train something I don't think I could do "for real" I start to feel like Im wasting my time, but thats just me.

Great thread topic and discussion!!! :ultracool I'm a little late to the party but I'll throw in my .02. As it was already said, not everyone trains for SD. Of course, most would think that if you're training in an art, SD would be on the list somewhere, but its not always the case.

As for things that you would not do in a fight. In many cases, there are things such as drills, that while you would not do them in a fight, they are teaching an idea or concept. For example, in Arnis, there are many patterns/drills such as single and double siniwali. Now, while I'm not going to stand there and repeat these 'drills' with someone intent on taking my head off with a stick or punch, I can apply a part of the pattern to aid in my defense.

Mike

 

[Jerry]

Why would anyone practice techs they would never/ could never use in a real life situation?

Two answers (already mentioned) come screaming to mind.

1. Becuase their goal is not fighting (exercise, fun, sparring, demonstration, etc).

2. Because the technique gives them something they want (hitting little targets lightly helps with aim at big targets, or somesuch).

 

[DavidCC]

It seems most beginners I work with, when not told specifically to do someting with their "non-punching" hand, just let it hang wherever it pleases, sometimes out of the way and sometimes interfering with what they are trying to do. So, for beginners, teaching "off hand to hip" is a way to get them accustomed to controlling both hands at the same time doing different things. Later that evolves into block with one/strike with the other or any number of 2-handed activities.

 

[CuongNhuka]

well one reason is, what is useless to you very usefull to some one else. anouther is that technigue might be used to train something else. meaning if you can kick some one else in the head very hard no problem, then kicking some one in the knee hard enoung to break will be increadibly easy. the saying is 'train the weakest point'. spinning strikes for instince, train balance. flying or jumping kicks, are acctuly very effective if you do it fast enough, and even if not they can be used to cover distance, if just act like you are going to throw one. and if you don't agree with me and what to challege my oppoin, go ahead, but i'll probly just ignore you (i don't feel like debating right know)

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John

 

[cfr]

and if you don't agree with me and what to challege my oppoin, go ahead, but i'll probly just ignore you (i don't feel like debating right know)

Uhhh, OK. I challenge thee. :ultracool

 

[CuongNhuka]

haha, i mean go balistic and start yelling at me like 'YOUR SUCH A D*** HEAD BLAH BLAH BLAH' you know challenge my oppoin.

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

1. Hand on the Hip -- Motion used in pulling in the opponents wrists and ankles, Motion used in completing collar chokes and rear naked bar-arm chokes, Motion used in completing Arm Bars, Motion used in activating pressure ponts on the wrist. Motion of recoiling the hand, for a split second, from a previous action before it "loads" for the next major action.

2. High Kicks -- Bigger Risk, Bigger Payoff requires higher-skill and is thus frowned upon. Some fighters have made careers out of this in Vale Tudo settings which is about as close to a real fight as you can get in a competitive arena (keywords in a competitive arena). Maurice Smith, Bas Rutten, Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic, and others. High Kicks like every other attack need a set up to work on the skilled opponent. [Example: what's faster? a high kick or a jab? answer... usually the jab so people use it. What's faster a high kick or an arm bar? answer...the high kick but people prefer the armbar for some reason.] Train it if you want to use it. It's only hard when it isn't trained enough. How easy was it to throw that first reverse punch with power or that first jab with speed and accuracy without flaring the elbow, after training it how easy is it now?

3. Funky Footwork -- used to angle off and set up proper angles for attacking/countering, used to distract opponents focus so that they forget about the hands. See Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones, Jr. and others. These guys used funky footwork to make their opponents forget about their hands or misjudge the range, and the opponents already knew a kick wasn't coming and still looked down at the feet.

The definition of 'unuseable techniques' has no set definiton as a technique's value is limited by the experience of the user. None of the three comments above that were listed as unuseable are unuseable to me. They are actually essential to effective well-rounded self defense and/or fighting.

 

[cfr]

haha, i mean go balistic and start yelling at me like 'YOUR SUCH A D*** HEAD BLAH BLAH BLAH' you know challenge my oppoin.

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John

Im looking to share info, not debate anything. No challenge here.

 

[cfr]

The definition of 'unuseable techniques' has no set definiton as a technique's value is limited by the experience of the user. None of the three comments above that were listed as unuseable are unuseable to me. They are actually essential to effective well-rounded self defense and/or fighting.

Apparently you didnt read my follow up post on page 1 stating that "unusable techniques" was the wrong terminology and apologizing if I had offended anyone?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Actually I read the entire thread, commentary still applies as your rewording the question doesn't change it all that much. But, perhaps I shouldn't have answered the question at all.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

if you aren't going to:

1; Fight with your back hand on your hip.
2; Do flashy kicks.
3; Bizarre footwork.

Then why train in them. Im not saying they're unusable and apologize again for using that terminology. My point more was people that employ the things listed above but then say they wouldn't use them in a real fight. A few of you have pointed out answers like tradition, fun, etc. and those are answers that really make sense that I hadn't thought of.

I just tried to give you examples as to how and why maybe you ARE going to use the three things listed above. That would give you/someone a reason to train them. You stated on an earlier post that you want to share info, not debate. So why the attack of "apparently you didn't read...." when someone is trying to help YOU out with an answer to YOUR question? You're welcome, won't happen again so as to not offend you by trying to help.

Respectfully,

James Hawkins III, HI
Hawkins Kenpo Karate
Baltimore, MD

 

[CuongNhuka]

i mean that i'm going to ignore someone that wants to debate with me you got right asnd what more then that do you want to know?

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John

 

[cfr]

Actually I read the entire thread, commentary still applies as your rewording the question doesn't change it all that much. But, perhaps I shouldn't have answered the question at all.

Well if thats your opinion, fair enough. To me, saying something along the lines of "I used the wrong terminology" changes things quite a bit. Change in that I don't believe they are unusable. But hey, thats just my opinion on my writing.

Don't know if you should have answered or not? Fine with me though.

 

[cfr]

So why the attack of "apparently you didn't read...." when someone is trying to help YOU out with an answer to YOUR question?

Because if you're still focused on that comment, (the one I basically retracted) it would appear as though you didnt read it. Thank you for your answers. I do want to share info. What I don't want though is for the rest of this post to be stuck on the phrase "unusable techs" when I have done everything I possibly can to explain thats not really what I meant.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I understand what you tried to do by pulling the 'unuseable' part out of the question but think about this. If you don't think the techniques are 'unuseable' you think they are 'useable' which ALMOST removes the question all together. If the techniques are useable then there isn't much question as to why train them. Question -- Why do I train Useable techniques? Answer -- Because they are useable. Unless your question is now...How are these techniques useable and what are some of the uses? That's where I thought you were going with this "new" question hense the answer I gave you. Myabe now you can see the confusion and why people seem to be 'stuck on the unuseable part'. It's the main qualifier that gives you a question in the first place. Hope that helps, no harm no foul. Just seemed like you were being a jerk to someone who's taking time out to share info with you.

 

[cfr]

Just seemed like you were being a jerk to someone who's taking time out to share info with you.

My apologies if thats the way it appeared, that wasnt my intention.

 

[cfr]

I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street".

Guys, let me rephrase my question to avoid further confusion. Above is really what I meant to focus on. I appreciate the answers thus far, and have gained some valuable insights.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

"I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street"

Pride and tradition. I have gone to other Martial Arts Schools and clubs and shown the head instructor how certain moves may not go as planned or have a high probability of failing. Alot of time the answer is "I see what you are saying, but this is the way I was taught and I'll have to keep teaching it this way" or "I've already taught too many students the other way to change it now, that doesn't look good" I've gone to stand up schools to introduce them to groundwrork. Even had some "challenge matches" where I allowed biting, groin grabing, hair pulling, and eye gouging to be done to me. Despite submitting (and thereby embarassing) the head instructor(s) they still teach their students that an eye guouge or a bite will change everything on the ground. The reason -- because traditionally their system doesn't address the ground and they are too proud to admit they need other skills. Alot of people forget that the "Head master" does't know all and doesn't have all of the answers and will follow what he says even if they can prove it doesn't work because they want the belt that the head master will give them for doing it his way.

Sad but all too often true. Exchanging practical life saving skills for pride and a belt. Sigh.

 

[MJS]

Guys, lets try to get back to the topic of the thread and not harp on a little misunderstanding. We have a good thread going here. I'd hate to see it ruined by this.

Mike