Why the barrage?

[heretic888]

So what's the Big Fear? Why the endless demands for political correctness, why the endless insistence on public worship, the constant personal attacks on other Americans who simply disagree?

'Cuz the lib'ral types are, like, total fairies, dude. Hah! :ultracool

In all seriousness, though, my guess would be its a collective reaction against the change taking place in much of American society. We are in the slow, slow, slow transition from an industrial society to an informational/digital society --- and that is inevitably accompanied by changes in worldviews and collective values, as well.

In other words, we are ever-so-slowly becoming global. And, as much of the conservative movements have pointed out, they loathe anything "global" or "international" or "pluralistic". They adore isolationism, oppose "big government", and despise the United Nations. A lot of these guys just can't stand us moving from an us-first sociocentrism to a humanity-first worldcentrism. And, it scares the living hell out of them.

This is why Republicans like John McCain, who isn't afraid of international dialogue and communication, isn't bally-hooing about the "liberal conspiracy". But, guys like Bill Frist and Tom DeLay are.

Hrmm. Maybe they're right. Maybe it is all about "values". Agrarian values really can survive only so long, y'know...

 

[ginshun]

Robert, Robert, Robert, what are we going to do with you? Discount sources all you want. There is figgen audio of it posted in this thread. Regardless of whether or not you dislike the owner of the paper, you are just being silly by argueing that the event never happened. Or maybe your not even saying that, I haven't seen you actually adress the event in question, just the fact that you don't like the source of the article I posted.


Alternate sources.

New York Daily News

Boston Hearld

FMQB Radio Vegas

New York Post

World Net Daily

I am not sure who owns all of these outlets, but I am sure you do. Let the source discounting begin.

 

[Bammx2]

uuummmm.....
yea.

They pretty much think the US are insane, power mad,war monging,paranoid schizoids.
The war in iraq has been "unofficially" dubbed the 21st century crusade.
Even passing up the war for oil "theory".
Depending on the area of the country....
I do NOT go anywhere near due to the fact I am just an american.
And now that Malcom Glazer has bought Manchester United, the fans have lost thier frikken minds just because an AMERICAN owns thier team.
Of course,they all know Bush is the anti-christ.
Blair won the election last month,but says he will resign next year.
The Brits are getting somewhat annoyed at the treatment some of thier own at the hands of US immigration.
Example: One of the talk shows this very morning had a Brit who kicked out of the US on visa fraud just because he stayed over 5 days to be there when his son was born.
And now he has been denied re-entry back into the US.
5 days? c'mon...it was his son for chrst sake.
A British journalist went to the US fo a vaction not too long ago with his his family and because of a computer glich on the US side,he was shuttled out straight away and denied re-entry back into the US permanently.
Reason: they said they had him on record as never leaving the US for the 5 years previous.But he had his passport right in front of them with all the other countries he had been in for those 5 years and the US was not among them.
His job is to travel the world and right about it.
Those are just a couple of examples that aren't helping our image in the slightest bit.
In general...people still like the US,but I have noticed a definate change in the atmosphere in the last 2 years.
Now when I meet new people,the first question I get is "do you like Bush"?
It used to be "How do you like it here"?
Don't get me wrong,I am not anti-american,but I do see where they get the "paranoid" part from in some cases.
And to be honest...the propaganda machine(media) doesn't help on either side.

As for the driving.....
Hand guns was banned cause they saw roadrage a commin!
I will NOT drive here! I WILL get a gun!
These people are taught how to pass a test...not how to drive.
Not even in the tiniest bit!
Once they get in a car,respect is a foriegn language!

Lord have mercy......

I am quite surprised.
Well....not really.

I wrote this post from "an outsiders" point of view because I am a civilian living abroad and I get opinions from all walks of life here and from a wide variety of cultures.
A hell of a lot more than you get from "podunk,ohio"(go Bucks!).
And not ONE person has a single word to say about how the OUTSIDE WORLD percieves the US!
Now granted.....
some of you,my best friend in life included,might think there is nothing outside of US borders and could care less about what "others" might think.
Personally...I am happy where I am,but I am "true to my tribe"...but damn y'all! Some of you also have NO idea what its like to be persecuted JUST for being an americn in a "civil" country, just because OUR government is showing itself to be led by lunatcs! At leas thats what is percieved by the rest of the world.Even in the "civilised" countries who are our allies.
Now I'm not throwing up any "stats" here....
I am talking the "average joe" who has never been asked for thier opinions,but they still have something to say.
But,my God!
All I am seeing now is..."HE SAID,SHE SAID" bs and LOTS of finger pointing!
No wonder the world thinks we are lead by paranoid freaks!
Look at the bickering we do amongst ourselves! Let alone this "war on terror" isn't helping...MOST of the world just want the truth and a "war on terror" ain't it.
At least wasn't....it is now.
Not this garbage of bickering over who likes FOX,MSNBC who is on AM or FM.
Now we're just stomping the crap out of a loooooong dead horse.
Hell...this horse has been stomped so much...his shoes fit me!
If we want "world peace"...don't you think we should see what the rest of the world has to say about it?
God bless you all and I would for one would fight for EVERYONES right(except michaely crook) to experss thier "opinions"... but can we find something we ALL agree on for once that it isn't percieved by most as petty?
"Left Wing,Right Wing".....they both taste the same with a little BBQ sauce on'em!
I may be american...but I sure as hell do NOT want a republican or democratic party running it! One sucks and the other blows!

Now that I have had my rant,I have more than likely bent someone out of shape and for that I apologies.
And for those who can't or won't accept my apologies...

Bring it Baby!

I'm here fer ya:ultracool

And ya know what else?
I forgot why I started this rant anyway.
Thats another soapbox shot to hell.
Anybody got any duct tape?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ginshun, ginshun, ginshun. (And if you'd like me to be more polite, try it yourself.)

Please go back and read what I actually wrote. Several times. What I actually wrote was something simple, basic, and perfectly straightfoward: that it was important to consider the source.

I specifically added that given Rev. Sun Myung Moon's pretty crazy statements about religion and politics, and given his explicit claim that his newspaper existed to serve his religious and political goals, it was probably best to be very skeptical about anything in the "Washington Times," that had to do with religion or politics. I said nothing at all that would lead a decent reader to conclude that I'd told them not to read the thing at all.

I further noted--several times!--that there were also reasons to question the ideological slant of papers such as the, "New York Times," on the grounds that they spoke essentially for the middle class and for corporate America. It was simply the case that these groups do have a tradition of something like liberal humanism and objectivity, which meant that at least they THOUGHT they were committed to getting at reality when they reported. To offer a further example, the, "Times," offers a list of their screwups and corrections every issue; they also offered a specific self-criticism of their coverage of the lead-up to the Iraq War, on the grounds that they had been far too sympathetic to the President's views and far too uncritical of his, "facts."

Let me add that the list of, "sources," you offered for facts--which included a right-wing Christian website and at least two newspapers well known for pandering when it comes to sex and violence--simply aren't even vaguely as credible as the, "Times," or, "National Review," or PBS and the BBC, or, "The Economist," or indeed any of the sources I repeatedly mentioned.

If you want to be taken seriously, write and read seriously. Trying to oppose "The New York Times," and the BBC with "The New York Post," or, "World Net Daily," is the intellectual equivalent of bringing a whiffle ball bat to a gunfight.

Fer cripes' sake, at LEAST get on "Slate," and read Christopher Hitchens...

 

[Andrew Green]

They pretty much think the US are insane, power mad,war monging,paranoid schizoids.

This is new?

Even up here in Canada there is a fair bit of this, and it has been growing pretty good over the past couple years...

 

[ginshun]

Given the fact that the story is damning to a well known liberal commentator, I don't find it surprising that it is more widely reported in sources that slant to the right. I am not even denying that those sources do.

So are you going to consede that the story is true and actually comment on it, or just try to keep refuting the sources?

You can't honestly still believe the story is a fabrication. Actually I don't think that you ever did, it was just easier to dodge it than to say anything about it.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm responding pretty much in the way that you've responded to articles documenting the President's lies, Savage and Limbaugh's and Hannity's screeching accusations, the moral hypocrisy of guys like O'Reilly and William Bennett and Henry Hyde, the plagiarism of Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin, and the open corruption of Tom DeLay.

But since you ask, the article by Rhodes looks pretty stupid, and not very funny.

 

[ginshun]

I'm responding pretty much in the way that you've responded to articles documenting the President's lies, Savage and Limbaugh's and Hannity's screeching accusations, the moral hypocrisy of guys like O'Reilly and William Bennett and Henry Hyde, the plagiarism of Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin, and the open corruption of Tom DeLay.

But since you ask, the article by Rhodes looks pretty stupid, and not very funny.

Thank you.

Since you bring up the rest I will respond as well.

Presidents lies: I am still not conviced he knowing outright lied, but he is shady as heck. I will leave it at that. I have never claimed to be a Bush lover.

Savage and Limbaugh's and Hannity's screeching accusations: Yup they are crazy, I admit that. I just don't see the point in getting mad about it. I also think they have every right to say whatever they want. Most people realize that they are not actual news broadcastors. I have actually heard Savage say on several occations that his show is not objective, it is subjective; one mans opinion. Personally I think his show is hilarious.

the moral hypocrisy of guys like O'Reilly and William Bennett and Henry Hyde: O'Reilly is an idiot, and I don't have any idea who the other two are.

the plagiarism of Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin: Never heard of them

the open corruption of Tom DeLay: Don't really know much about that either to tell you the truth.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. DeLay is House Majority Whip. He's been censured three times by the Republican-controlled Ethics Committee; he's under State and Federal investigation for an assortment of corruption and illegal financing schemes.

2. Ambrose was "author," of "Band of Brothers," and frequently cited by conservatives and rightists in regard to helping establish our moral decline from the "greatest generation," of WWII. Goodwin was one of Reagan's principal speechwriters. They both got caught extensively plagiarizing their recent books.

3. Hyde? Strongest anti-abortion voice in the Senate. When he was 40, he drove his girlfriend to a women's clinic for an abortion. (I mention his age because when caught, he tried to claim that it was a, "youthful indiscretion.") Bennett? ex-Secretary of Education; makes his money lecturing on morality and selling his, "Readings From the Book of Morals," there's even a PBS cartoon. Got caught last year--has a serious gambling yen, dropped 6-10 mil over the last ten years or so.

4. Oh. Savage--who I believe you've previously claimed never to've listened to or read--is funny, eh? Not a prob, compared to Rhodes, eh? Really. Let's look at a little of the laff riot:

From the May 12 Savage Nation:

Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be. I can guarantee you -- I don't need to go to Mr. Schmuck [pollster John] Zogby and ask him his opinion. I don't need anyone's opinion. I'll give you my opinion, because I got a better stethoscope than those fools. It's one man's opinion based upon my own analysis. The most -- I tell you right now -- the largest percentage of Americans would like to see a nuclear weapon dropped on a major Arab capital. They don't even care which one. They'd like an indiscriminate use of a nuclear weapon. They want this over with. One thing people cannot live with, which is an undefined, limitless conflict, which is what we have now. They can't take it. They want this war over with, and they want it ended like the war against Japan. They'd like Big Boy dropped on one of the little cities over there. They don't care where. They don't care any more. The American people have had it up to here with this garbage.

In fact, Christianity has been one of the great salvations on planet Earth. It's what's necessary in the Middle East. Others have written about it, I think these people need to be forcibly converted to Christianity but I'll get here a little later, I'll move up to that. It's the only thing that can probably turn them into human beings.

I'm going to give you one further example from my background as an anthropologist just so that you -- I'm trying to put context on this because you can go crazy if you don't have the context on this, because I'm going to lead up to something of what we must do to these primitives. Because these primitives can only be treated in one way, and I don't think smallpox and a blanket is good enough incidentally. Just before -- I'm going to give you a little precursor to where I'm going. Smallpox in a blanket, which the U.S. Army gave to the Cherokee Indians on their long march to the West, was nothing compared to what I'd like to see done to these people, just so you understand that I'm not going to be too intellectual about my analysis here in terms of what I would recommend, what Doc Savage recommends as an antidote to this kind of poison coming out of the Middle East from these non-humans.



Well, I see your point. That's the sorta stuff that had them rolling in the aisles at Treblinka.

 

[ginshun]

1. DeLay is House Majority Whip. He's been censured three times by the Republican-controlled Ethics Committee; he's under State and Federal investigation for an assortment of corruption and illegal financing schemes.

2. Ambrose was "author," of "Band of Brothers," and frequently cited by conservatives and rightists in regard to helping establish our moral decline from the "greatest generation," of WWII. Goodwin was one of Reagan's principal speechwriters. They both got caught extensively plagiarizing their recent books.

3. Hyde? Strongest anti-abortion voice in the Senate. When he was 40, he drove his girlfriend to a women's clinic for an abortion. (I mention his age because when caught, he tried to claim that it was a, "youthful indiscretion.") Bennett? ex-Secretary of Education; makes his money lecturing on morality and selling his, "Readings From the Book of Morals," there's even a PBS cartoon. Got caught last year--has a serious gambling yen, dropped 6-10 mil over the last ten years or so.

4. Oh. Savage--who I believe you've previously claimed never to've listened to or read--is funny, eh? Not a prob, compared to Rhodes, eh? Really. Let's look at a little of the laff riot:

From the May 12 Savage Nation:

Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be. I can guarantee you -- I don't need to go to Mr. Schmuck [pollster John] Zogby and ask him his opinion. I don't need anyone's opinion. I'll give you my opinion, because I got a better stethoscope than those fools. It's one man's opinion based upon my own analysis. The most -- I tell you right now -- the largest percentage of Americans would like to see a nuclear weapon dropped on a major Arab capital. They don't even care which one. They'd like an indiscriminate use of a nuclear weapon. They want this over with. One thing people cannot live with, which is an undefined, limitless conflict, which is what we have now. They can't take it. They want this war over with, and they want it ended like the war against Japan. They'd like Big Boy dropped on one of the little cities over there. They don't care where. They don't care any more. The American people have had it up to here with this garbage.

In fact, Christianity has been one of the great salvations on planet Earth. It's what's necessary in the Middle East. Others have written about it, I think these people need to be forcibly converted to Christianity but I'll get here a little later, I'll move up to that. It's the only thing that can probably turn them into human beings.

I'm going to give you one further example from my background as an anthropologist just so that you -- I'm trying to put context on this because you can go crazy if you don't have the context on this, because I'm going to lead up to something of what we must do to these primitives. Because these primitives can only be treated in one way, and I don't think smallpox and a blanket is good enough incidentally. Just before -- I'm going to give you a little precursor to where I'm going. Smallpox in a blanket, which the U.S. Army gave to the Cherokee Indians on their long march to the West, was nothing compared to what I'd like to see done to these people, just so you understand that I'm not going to be too intellectual about my analysis here in terms of what I would recommend, what Doc Savage recommends as an antidote to this kind of poison coming out of the Middle East from these non-humans.



Well, I see your point. That's the sorta stuff that had them rolling in the aisles at Treblinka.

I know who DeLay is, I just haven't actually looked into the acuasations or even listened to or read anything about it, so I don't want to comment.

I and don't think that I claimed I never heard of Savage or that I never listened to him. I listen to him for probably a half hour a week, on my way home for about 5-10 minutes at a time when I work late. I never have read any of his books. I am sorry for being an insensative jerk, but I actually kind of giggled while I was reading that. I could just hear him going on a tie raid like that and can't help it. How can you not laugh at somebody that nuts? Honestly, if you take him seriously, then I suppose he does really make you mad. Really though, every time he goes crazy and starts just ripping his callers to shreads with insult after insult I laugh.

I suppose I am laughing, but if I would take the time to really think about what he is saying it might bother me. Thats why I don't.

 

[heretic888]

From the May 12 Savage Nation:

Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be. I can guarantee you -- I don't need to go to Mr. Schmuck [pollster John] Zogby and ask him his opinion. I don't need anyone's opinion. I'll give you my opinion, because I got a better stethoscope than those fools. It's one man's opinion based upon my own analysis. The most -- I tell you right now -- the largest percentage of Americans would like to see a nuclear weapon dropped on a major Arab capital. They don't even care which one. They'd like an indiscriminate use of a nuclear weapon. They want this over with. One thing people cannot live with, which is an undefined, limitless conflict, which is what we have now. They can't take it. They want this war over with, and they want it ended like the war against Japan. They'd like Big Boy dropped on one of the little cities over there. They don't care where. They don't care any more. The American people have had it up to here with this garbage.

In fact, Christianity has been one of the great salvations on planet Earth. It's what's necessary in the Middle East. Others have written about it, I think these people need to be forcibly converted to Christianity but I'll get here a little later, I'll move up to that. It's the only thing that can probably turn them into human beings.

I'm going to give you one further example from my background as an anthropologist just so that you -- I'm trying to put context on this because you can go crazy if you don't have the context on this, because I'm going to lead up to something of what we must do to these primitives. Because these primitives can only be treated in one way, and I don't think smallpox and a blanket is good enough incidentally. Just before -- I'm going to give you a little precursor to where I'm going. Smallpox in a blanket, which the U.S. Army gave to the Cherokee Indians on their long march to the West, was nothing compared to what I'd like to see done to these people, just so you understand that I'm not going to be too intellectual about my analysis here in terms of what I would recommend, what Doc Savage recommends as an antidote to this kind of poison coming out of the Middle East from these non-humans.

Jesus. Tap. Dancing. Christ. :erg: :erg: :erg:

 

[Tgace]

Same old tune. Anybody who disagrees with me is wrong and its because of the radio pundit they listen too.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Please explain precisely where I wrote that anybody who disagreed was wrong, or intended it. Do try and be specific.

2. "I suppose I am laughing, but if I would take the time to really think about what he is saying it might bother me. Thats why I don't."

3. I gotta go with Jesus. Tap. Dancing. Christ.

 

[Phoenix44]

This is really sad--to not even know or care about what influential people are saying and doing--and then to express an uneducated opinion about it. Now I have a better understanding of why people vote the way they do.

 

[Tgace]

Well, I always have respect for people who are "in the fight" even when I dont agree with them. Heck I can respect somebody even when I dont like them. Most rudeness springs up over how people express their opinions vs. the opinion itself IMO. I also believe that they are more worthy of respect because at least they are speaking up for what they believe...educated or not. The value of their opinion may differ, but not their right to it.

They are worth more than people who just enter into a debate and offer nothing but a few shots at people.

 

[sgtmac_46]

1. Please explain precisely where I wrote that anybody who disagreed was wrong, or intended it. Do try and be specific.

2. "I suppose I am laughing, but if I would take the time to really think about what he is saying it might bother me. Thats why I don't."

3. I gotta go with Jesus. Tap. Dancing. Christ.

You never said EVERYONE who disagreed with you is wrong, just all of us fascists. While we're on the subject, if you want to talk about the shrill nature of politics in America AND be taken seriously, you'll take off the "A) All conservatives are either HATEFILLED Fascist bigots or B) HATEFILLED religious wackos blinders, and stop BELIEVING only sources that confirm and attempted to destroy any source to the contrary. Keep in minde for every Savage there's a Janine Garrafalo. Funny how one is a dangerous conservative commentator when he makes a comment you disagree with, and the other is just an entertainer whenever they say something offensive. Get a grip, robertson, this isn't healthy for you.

 

[Flatlander]

When I drive to and from work--long commute, don't ask--I often get stuck with AM radio. And on AM radio (unless I can get Jim Rome) there's an endless barrage of what I'd have to call right wing and fundamentalist Christian jazz to listen to.

Apparently, our country's going straight to hell. Apparently, every murderer gers off. Apparently, the liberal-left-lesbian conspiracy will--sometime next week--take every gun, force everybody to have abortions wheteher they're preggnant or not, and burn every Bible. Apparently, young people are so destroyed by radical professors like me that they all hate their country. Apparently, America is saturated with traitors. Well, them and illegal immigrants.

OK, fine. So here's my question: what are these people so scared of, assuming they're really on the warpath and not just trying to get and keep listeners? Why the constant barrage of madness, the constant attacks on everybody with the slightest divergent ideas? Why the endless fussbudgeting around with other people's bedroom habits? Why the constant demands for more patriotism, more more more, with the likes of Michael Savage setting the rules for what patriotism is and how to display it?

I don't get it. By the world's standards, we're all pretty much rich and privileged. We mostly aren't in danger all the time, for one thing. And by and large, people behave pretty well.

So what's the Big Fear? Why the endless demands for political correctness, why the endless insistence on public worship, the constant personal attacks on other Americans who simply disagree?

Or, to put this another way, why do people think that we all need to be reminded daily of what most of us already know about this country?

Looks like demands for endless loyalty oaths to me, and I say, "Give EVERYBODY eat!" But there must be other explanations; what are they?

without having read any of this thread save the first post, I'd have to answer: perhaps for the same reason you were motivated to type this post. Which is to say, they care about issues, and want to be involved. That is how they choose to involve themselves.

 

[sgtmac_46]

without having read any of this thread save the first post, I'd have to answer: perhaps for the same reason you were motivated to type this post. Which is to say, they care about issues, and want to be involved. That is how they choose to involve themselves.

That's pretty much what I said. Apparently robertson is more entitled to an opinion than others are.

 

[TonyM.]

Thank you all. I was unaware that not liking repulsive radical freaks meant I had an agenda.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. "Get a grip, robertson, this isn't healthy for you." Well, gosh. Thank ahura-mazda that nobody's stooping to personal insults rather than discuss the issues. I'd respond in kind, but I'm afraid that a) I don't actually think of people I don't know in such terms, and b) I don't actually believe it's right to make such comments.

2. When Janeann Garofalo starts trumpeting that she and her liberal buddies have elected a leftist government and everybody who sees the world differently had better watch out, I will cheerfully start ranking on Janeann Garofalo.

3. Until that happens, I believe I'll just continue to look at the ACTUAL world.

4. Sigh. Everybody entitled own opinion and arguments, obviously. Everybody also entitled try to understand opinions and arguments--for ex, where all this anxiety's coming from.