Why Surviving Two Handed Sword Manuals Mostly Germans while many Rapier texts are Romance nations And Brits focus on Naval, Sabers, and Arming Sword?

SlamDunkerista

White Belt
A trend notice in HEMA and Historical Sword Reconstruction is that every time a video is done on Two Handed Styles and not just Zweihander but "Longswords (anything longer than an arming sword but still shorter than a rapier) are almost always referring to German masters on a typical HEMA video on Youtube.

While so much Rapier texts are from Spanish French, and Italian masters and not just on Youtube and HEMA sites-just do a quick googling right now and you'll see the instant results are texts from France, Italy, and Spain!

On the otherhand its often complain British swordplay esp English have a dearth of available source. But yet so much fo the Youtube Channels put a big emphasis on Medieval Arming Sword, Sabers, and Naval Swords like Spadoon and if we are lucky the Basket Hilt Sword.

SO I have to ask why its a pattern that HEMA studying different nations overly emphasized some types or weapons? I mean why very little stuff on Prussian Bayonet and Saber fencing for example?

So much reconstructed British stuff is Naval or Cavalry and despite the Victorians believing big heavy swords are for dumb buffoons there is a lack of focus on the stereotypical elegant and skillful rapier! Why is there little focus on spear fighting in France despite the fact even by Napoleon's time Pole Arms were still the main weapons of close combat for French soldiers?!
 
A trend notice in HEMA and Historical Sword Reconstruction is that every time a video is done on Two Handed Styles and not just Zweihander but "Longswords (anything longer than an arming sword but still shorter than a rapier) are almost always referring to German masters on a typical HEMA video on Youtube.

While so much Rapier texts are from Spanish French, and Italian masters and not just on Youtube and HEMA sites-just do a quick googling right now and you'll see the instant results are texts from France, Italy, and Spain!

On the otherhand its often complain British swordplay esp English have a dearth of available source. But yet so much fo the Youtube Channels put a big emphasis on Medieval Arming Sword, Sabers, and Naval Swords like Spadoon and if we are lucky the Basket Hilt Sword.

SO I have to ask why its a pattern that HEMA studying different nations overly emphasized some types or weapons? I mean why very little stuff on Prussian Bayonet and Saber fencing for example?

So much reconstructed British stuff is Naval or Cavalry and despite the Victorians believing big heavy swords are for dumb buffoons there is a lack of focus on the stereotypical elegant and skillful rapier! Why is there little focus on spear fighting in France despite the fact even by Napoleon's time Pole Arms were still the main weapons of close combat for French soldiers?!
I would guess that there isn't much of a market out there for those other weapons and fighting styles that revolve around them. I wouldn't mind seeing European spear/lance/halberd expanded upon beyond very short snippets.
 
Actually a lot of HEMA longsword is from Fiore, who was Italian.

A lot comes down to the available sources. There were a lot of weapons used in different European countries throughout history, but the majority of those weapon traditions didn’t leave behind instructional treatises which survived and contain useful information. We have a fair amount of good information on German and Italian longsword practice, not so much for longsword from other countries.

Besides the best available rapier sources being from Italy, France, and Spain, I think those were the countries which actually used that weapon the most. My club focuses on Meyer (a German source). Meyer does cover a weapon he calls the “rappier”, but it’s closer to what modern HEMA generally refers to as a “side sword”. It doesn’t have the complex hilt characteristic of later rapiers and so the usage is different.

As far as spears and other polearms, I don’t think we have as many resources for those as we do for the various forms of swords. Even though they were the pre-eminent battlefield weapon for centuries, they weren’t the focus of so many written treatises. I suspect that may have something to do with the target audience for books during an era when they were rare and expensive. The early treatises weren’t intended as mass-produced military manuals. Those came later, when polearms had become less important. (Meyer does have a section on the pike, but it’s very short compared to his coverage of the longsword, dussack, and rappier.)

I do believe there are some historical bayonet manuals which are not being widely used as sources despite being contemporaneous with the saber manuals that are used by many HEMA groups. That’s probably because the bayonet just isn’t as fun or sexy of a weapon to study and fence with.
 
I do believe there are some historical bayonet manuals which are not being widely used as sources despite being contemporaneous with the saber manuals that are used by many HEMA groups. That’s probably because the bayonet just isn’t as fun or sexy of a weapon to study and fence with.
We can always hope to return to trench warfare. Someday.

Sure beats nuclear war.

 
A trend notice in HEMA and Historical Sword Reconstruction is that every time a video is done on Two Handed Styles and not just Zweihander but "Longswords (anything longer than an arming sword but still shorter than a rapier) are almost always referring to German masters on a typical HEMA video on Youtube.

While so much Rapier texts are from Spanish French, and Italian masters and not just on Youtube and HEMA sites-just do a quick googling right now and you'll see the instant results are texts from France, Italy, and Spain!

On the otherhand its often complain British swordplay esp English have a dearth of available source. But yet so much fo the Youtube Channels put a big emphasis on Medieval Arming Sword, Sabers, and Naval Swords like Spadoon and if we are lucky the Basket Hilt Sword.

SO I have to ask why its a pattern that HEMA studying different nations overly emphasized some types or weapons? I mean why very little stuff on Prussian Bayonet and Saber fencing for example?

So much reconstructed British stuff is Naval or Cavalry and despite the Victorians believing big heavy swords are for dumb buffoons there is a lack of focus on the stereotypical elegant and skillful rapier! Why is there little focus on spear fighting in France despite the fact even by Napoleon's time Pole Arms were still the main weapons of close combat for French soldiers?!
I’m no expert, but I’m a Brit and have a pretty decent knowledge of history so I think I can shed at least a little light on that aspect of your question. That said, I might get yourself a cup of tea because this could get a bit wordy. Fingers crossed it’s interesting too!

Put simply, England is a strange place. We are part of Europe but apart from it at the same time. Even in the context of the British Isles we stand apart. The Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and even Cornish, are all descended from one Celtic ethnolinguistic family, while the English are a Germanic culture. What this means is that although the English have a lot in common, and are interrelated, with the cultures around us, we are quite different in a number of ways.

Going back to the age of knights and lances, despite looking superficially similar to nearby western nations, the English philosophy was distinct. The feudal system ensured the primacy of the knight across most of Europe. But owing to England’s highly legalistic culture a system called scutage developed wherein a knight could pay their Lord a sum of money instead of providing military service. So while knights and kings still formed a significant part of England’s martial culture, a parallel mercenary culture developed alongside it. This meant that England was able to maintain a core of experienced and trained soldiers without producing as many of them itself. As I’ve said I’m no expert, but I think it’s fair to make the argument that with this system in place England’s military could shift away from the individual and onto the collective. One only has to look at the Hundred Years’ War to see how this manifested in the difference between France’s elite and independent knights vs England’s large armies of archers and footmen. I think this also explains the cultural position of the sword in England. Less focus on the individual warrior, less focus on the romantic weapons of the individual.

Following on from there, after England evolved into Britain, it led the world into the Industrial Revolution. The Civil War in the 1600s saw the rise of the New Model Army which was an early adopter of regulations and a dynamic shift away from what remained of the feudal style systems of war England still had. The Industrial Revolution meant that Britain’s military had shifted to mass gun armed infantry early on so while the Scots, in the Jacobite rebellion for example, were still wielding awesome basket hilt broad swords, small shields, and dirks, the English were mostly redcoats with guns. Close quarters combat was at this stage deeply undesirable. Another reason for the lack of the sword’s prominence in British sources.

As for the naval aspect, that makes perfect sense. Britain is an island. Naval operations were always going to be a key element of its development and as Brittania came to rule the waves, naval engagements became commonplace. So it’s no surprise really that a major expression of its swordplay would come in a naval context as the capture of ships often required close quarters combat in a way that land engagements didn’t.

Now, that isn’t to say Britain was a slouch when it came to swordplay. One just has to look a little deeper. Britain fought on every continent in the colonial age. It fought against most of the world’s cultures and it couldn’t always rely on its guns. There are great accounts of British swordsmen outfighting Indian warriors and all other kinds. Swordsmen of the British Empire is a great book worth a read. But yeah, in summary, Britain’s focus was elsewhere so its swordsmanship slipped between the boards a little outside of the naval context.

Phew! That was a long one. Sorry about that! Anyway, I hope that if you’re interested that satisfies a bit of your curiosity!
 
Actually a lot of HEMA longsword is from Fiore, who was Italian.

A lot comes down to the available sources. There were a lot of weapons used in different European countries throughout history, but the majority of those weapon traditions didn’t leave behind instructional treatises which survived and contain useful information. We have a fair amount of good information on German and Italian longsword practice, not so much for longsword from other countries.

Besides the best available rapier sources being from Italy, France, and Spain, I think those were the countries which actually used that weapon the most. My club focuses on Meyer (a German source). Meyer does cover a weapon he calls the “rappier”, but it’s closer to what modern HEMA generally refers to as a “side sword”. It doesn’t have the complex hilt characteristic of later rapiers and so the usage is different.

As far as spears and other polearms, I don’t think we have as many resources for those as we do for the various forms of swords. Even though they were the pre-eminent battlefield weapon for centuries, they weren’t the focus of so many written treatises. I suspect that may have something to do with the target audience for books during an era when they were rare and expensive. The early treatises weren’t intended as mass-produced military manuals. Those came later, when polearms had become less important. (Meyer does have a section on the pike, but it’s very short compared to his coverage of the longsword, dussack, and rappier.)

I do believe there are some historical bayonet manuals which are not being widely used as sources despite being contemporaneous with the saber manuals that are used by many HEMA groups. That’s probably because the bayonet just isn’t as fun or sexy of a weapon to study and fence with.
RE bayonets Japan still has a tradition of bayonet fighting called jukendo (when attached to the rifle) or tankendo (when detached). I believe it to be relatively modern, mostly based on European (French?) bayonet fighting, with influences from Japanese spear fighting (sƍjutsu). They also hold competitions.

 
SO I have to ask why its a pattern that HEMA studying different nations overly emphasized some types or weapons? I mean why very little stuff on Prussian Bayonet and Saber fencing for example?

Because the surviving treatises and manuals that are considered sufficient enough to be used as sources to recreate HEMA just happen to be on certain weapons, therefore those weapons are studied.

The Holy Roman Empire was also very bureaucratic but decentralised which lead to a weird situation where sword schools were either over-governed then absorbed into the empire's standard military, broke off as mercenary groups which tended to stifle the development and recording of their "art", or (most commonly the case) were subject to laws that simply restricted the carrying of arms to a large portion of the population.

Unlike Japan, Europe never really had a centralised ruling military class with strict customary traditions, and the nature of feudalism across Europe was so fragmented that knights who did practise swordsmanship never really had the time to develop a lasting codified system. The nature of war was also appreciated in a very different way - it wasn't personal or tied to indigenous religious deities; it was all about land and by virtue of that fact most battlefield tactics relied on large scale armies with comparatively standard formations and options for engagement, usually with heavy armour and in response the usage of blunt weapons.

In contrast, Japanese warfare, irrespective of the size of the skirmish, promoted the idea that one could gain status, bring honor to their house and potentially become a lord by their performance in more personal combative duals on the battlefield. There was a chance for social and class mobility on the battlefield for the average Japanese farmer (a la Toyotomi Hideyoshi), whereas this was largely restricted in Europe to already established noble families.

Basically, warfare and the "art of weaponry" was simply appreciated differently, almost entirely utilitarian. If it got the job done, that was usually good enough.
 
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