Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?

[drop bear]

I can't speak for all karate but I do know that when Sosai Mas Oyama was initially spreading Kyokushin he approached some top level Judoka Sensei to join. My understanding is he was quite successful in attracting them and I expect that they would have taught the same Judo techniques as part of the Kyokushin syllabus. Shihan Jon Bluming would be one of the an think of at the top of my head. Shihan Bluming is also a pioneer of blending striking with grappling.

Makes sense to me that GSP would fly in top Thai guys so he could better study the striking of his opponents.

Yeah but karate didn't keep them, sort of.

So for example a MMA school attracts a top grappler in to their system. The grappler, due to his expertise runs the show. Or the other stylists get good enough at that grappling to pass it on.

And then that school has good grapplers.

So local karate school

Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness

has good grappling. But they spend enough time on that grappling to get good.

 

[drop bear]

we clearly they are comparable as i compared them, that what the word means ..fact

so are you opinion

No evidence to support they are comparable.

So you compared them, yes. But there is no evidence to support that comparison.

You are substituting reality and inserting your own again.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yeah but karate didn't keep them, sort of.

So for example a MMA school attracts a top grappler in to their system. The grappler, due to his expertise runs the show. Or the other stylists get good enough at that grappling to pass it on.

And then that school has good grapplers.

So local karate school

Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness

has good grappling. But they spend enough time on that grappling to get good.

Actually karate did keep them. Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus. Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.

In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history. By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it. Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.

 

[drop bear]

Actually karate did keep them. Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus. Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.

In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history. By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it. Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.

Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?

 

[jobo]

No evidence to support they are comparable.

So you compared them, yes. But there is no evidence to support that comparison.

You are substituting reality and inserting your own again.

You said they weren't comparable and they are, so that's not a fact

you don't get to jump horse mid race, its now 1_ 0 to me

go back and give another factual statement or you just loose the whole game

 

[Yokozuna514]

Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?

I'm not sure what your question has to do with my answer but I suspect Shihan Bluming was an accomplished judoka that earned his stripes on the tatami. I further surmise that if a karateka with a background in judo were to open up a school to teach karate, his teachings would be influenced by his judo regardless if he won competitions or not.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure what your question has to do with my answer but I suspect Shihan Bluming was an accomplished judoka that earned his stripes on the tatami. I further surmise that if a karateka with a background in judo were to open up a school to teach karate, his teachings would be influenced by his judo regardless if he won competitions or not.

You can do judo. And you can do judo.

I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.

 

[drop bear]

You said they weren't comparable and they are, so that's not a fact

you don't get to jump horse mid race, its now 1_ 0 to me

go back and give another factual statement or you just loose the whole game

No I didn't say that.

I said this.

"You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact."

And that is a fact. With evidence to support it.

 

[jobo]

Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?

yes i think he would, he would be odds on for the under 7s champtionship

No I didn't say that.

I said this.

"You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact."

And that is a fact. With evidence to support it.

but they are clearly comparable as we both compared them,

we have done this

but still im taking the point so its 2-0 to me

i honestly though you make a better stab at this, its like taking candy off a baby

 

[jobo]

You can do judo. And you can do judo.

now this is factual, im not sure why you had to say it twice

 

[Graywalker]

So basic punching...got it.

 

[Graywalker]

Some folks really had some bad Karate instructors.

 

[Yokozuna514]

You can do judo. And you can do judo.

I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.

I think I understand what you are saying here. You want to the knowledge of peoples' claims to match their credentials and experience level. Correct ?

Shihan Bluming as a 10th Dan in Judo. Not that belt stripes are the be all and end all but he was a high level judoka in the 70's so I think he (amongst the other Judo Sensei that were approached at the same time) have a real background in the art.

 

[drop bear]

So basic punching...got it.

That is about as far removed from basic punching as you can get.

 

[drop bear]

I think I understand what you are saying here. You want to the knowledge of peoples' claims to match their credentials and experience level. Correct ?

Shihan Bluming as a 10th Dan in Judo. Not that belt stripes are the be all and end all but he was a high level judoka in the 70's so I think he (amongst the other Judo Sensei that were approached at the same time) have a real background in the art.

Yeah. Krav tends to do that a bit. They take moves from boxing and mma and something something the street.

And what you get is a person who takes a move they don't really understand and teaches it to people who don't know any better.

You don't get very good results.

 

[Graywalker]

That is about as far removed from basic punching as you can get.

Actually it is not, these are things that I learned in my youth and teach to this day. Sure he has mastered the basics very well. But, in the right hands, the basics are supposed to look advanced...it all boils down, in any craft, to mastering the basics.

 

[Graywalker]

Actually karate did keep them. Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus. Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.

In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history. By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it. Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.

This is true, Bob Babich, the founder of my system, so to speak, was an early black belt if Don Buck..and we have grappling in our system.

Is it great against 24/7 grapplers? Probably not, but staying on the ground fulltime in a fight, is in no way realistic. But, it is useful for getting off the ground.

Why grapple when you can strike your way off of the ground.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We are pretty committed to smack talk in our gym. So you guys would be fine here.

Although telling my coach squirrel girl would beat captain America did get pretty tense there for a while.

It's right there in the title: The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl. Did Captain America ever take down Thanos on his own? I think not.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You can do judo. And you can do judo.

I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.

I believe Yokozuna514 was referencing Jon Bluming, who was a high level judoka as well as a high level kyokushin karateka. I don't know how much of his grappling/judo experience he passed on to his karate students, but it's perhaps notable that one of his students (Takashi Azuma) went on to found Kudo.

I do agree that most karate practitioners don't have nearly that level of grappling ability, but there are some who do.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yeah. Krav tends to do that a bit. They take moves from boxing and mma and something something the street.

And what you get is a person who takes a move they don't really understand and teaches it to people who don't know any better.

You don't get very good results.

I think that has more to do with integrity than anything else. If you don't have a proper understanding of the material then what are you passing on ? GIGO.

This is true, Bob Babich, the founder of my system, so to speak, was an early black belt if Don Buck..and we have grappling in our system.

Is it great against 24/7 grapplers? Probably not, but staying on the ground fulltime in a fight, is in no way realistic. But, it is useful for getting off the ground.

Why grapple when you can strike your way off of the ground.

Yes essentially Dojo Operators that have a proper foundation in one art can definitely integrate it into another given the will to do so. Grappling off the ground or striking off the ground, two sides of the same coin.

I believe Yokozuna514 was referencing Jon Bluming, who was a high level judoka as well as a high level kyokushin karateka. I don't know how much of his grappling/judo experience he passed on to his karate students, but it's perhaps notable that one of his students (Takashi Azuma) went on to found Kudo.

I do agree that most karate practitioners don't have nearly that level of grappling ability, but there are some who do.

It is my understanding that he integrated both when passing down his system. Osu, the late Shihan Takashi Azuma is another great example.

On the average, you are probably correct about 'most' karate practitioners. To be reasonably proficient at grappling, you need to practice grappling. Same with striking and kicking. How many hours a week is that going to take ? A lot more than 3........