Why Do We Train in Bare Feet?
- Thread starter elder999
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
:angel:
ok..... what is it suppose to accomplish
It's hard to see in that video. The toe-rip kick was originally in several Isshin-Ryu katas and is still optionally practiced in Sunsu kata. The idea is that it enters into the top ridge of muscle above the hara and tears down into the groin area. It does not enter in and up, as a front snap kick, or in and back, as a heel thrust kick. It enters slightly under the ridge of muscle and tears downwards. If practiced as part of Sunsu, it is the only traditional Isshin-Ryu kick that goes above the obi by design (many of the other kicks *can* be delivered above the obi, but they don't *have* to be).
As described to me (and I cannot yet do it properly), the toe-rip kick requires the karateka to curl his toes up at the first joint and then down at the second joint. This leaves the toes in a position not unlike a 'tiger claw' if done by the hand. I am told that when people walk around in sandals all day, they develop muscles that make this considerably easier to do. Imagine a tiger claw to the face, ripping downward (we don't have a tiger claw, but you get the idea) and then apply that to the foot, and done on the length of the hara area of musculature in the abdomen to the groin.
Why not just wear these and do the kick.... it would be easier on the toes
Toe rip win...
But I kick with my toes anyway. I always wear shoes (except for obvious times) so I let my shoes hand the hard stuff & the toes direct where to go.
Think about thowing a punch with a phoenix eye fist except with the toes.
First came across this idea in the Bujinkan. Never have let it go & always modify it to go with me where ever.
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
opps...:dalek:
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
Thanks to Bill going of his info here is Sunsu kata demonstrated by Tatsuo Shimabuku sensei watch for the kick at :46 for those like me.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
LOL... don't ask me. I'm just going by what the guy in the video said. At :28 seconds, he says, "Toe Rip Kick" and then he does some wackiness with his right leg.
LOL... don't ask me. I'm just going by what the guy in the video said. At :28 seconds, he says, "Toe Rip Kick" and then he does some wackiness with his right leg.
He does both... he says toe rip & then does a stomp variation. Both have been mentioned here.
Personally I have had a couple of long conversations with a friend who really only trains in shoes. My take is that you should train both ways so that you are accustomed to having shoes on and also with them off. Most people wear shoes on a daily basis so you really need to have experience with them in your training. While some people where them in the house other people do not. Yet, even the people who wear them in the house I am betting that they do not wear their shoes to bed. So with that in mind there is a chance you may not have shoes on if someone breaks into your home and you may then be fighting for your life bare foot. So I think it is pretty simple that you should train both with shoes and without! 
I train barefoot because I enjoy it. I'm a fan of barefoot locomotion in general, including barefoot walking and running (although I'm not a runner at all). I like to feel my foot grip the ground and I like the increased sensitivity and stability I get from being barefoot as opposed to wearing foot coffins. And it makes me feel connected to an older, more rustic, more traditional style of training, which I personally enjoy. I still train in shoes, and boots, and sandals. I pretty much train in any clothing I might be wearing on even a semi-regular basis. Just in case. And also because I can't stop myself from doing at least a little karate, even when I'm not dressed for it and it isn't environmentally appropriate. But mostly, I like to train barefoot. And I don't like it when my training partners step on my bare foot with their rubber soled shoes. I let my students wear whatever they want, so long as they are clean, but I encourage them to train barefoot as well. It allows you to see the feet and focus on the proper form of your basics, which I believe is important. Ultimately, is it necessary? I don't think so. But I think there're some good reasons to do it, and I enjoy it, so it's the decision I've made for me.
-Rob
-Rob
OP
OP
And, to bring things full circle here, one of Okazaki sensei's teachers was Masatoshi Nakayama (the other principle one being Funakoshi himself).
Nakayama sensei wrote a few really neat little books on using karate for self defense, back in the late 50's and early 60's, that covered fighting in western clothing, with a chapter (somewhere) on kicking in western shoes.I'm thinking of the "Practical Karate" series he co-wrote with Donn Draeger, but all I could find was this:
EDIT: Here we go:
Nakayama sensei wrote a few really neat little books on using karate for self defense, back in the late 50's and early 60's, that covered fighting in western clothing, with a chapter (somewhere) on kicking in western shoes.I'm thinking of the "Practical Karate" series he co-wrote with Donn Draeger, but all I could find was this:
EDIT: Here we go:
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
LOL... don't ask me. I'm just going by what the guy in the video said. At :28 seconds, he says, "Toe Rip Kick" and then he does some wackiness with his right leg.
Oh my there is a sensei rolling in his grave over that video isn't there? :lol:
Victor Smith
Blue Belt
The use of the term 'Toe Rip Kick' for that motion in the Isshinryu SunNuSu (Sunsu) Kata is not a universal descriptive term but does explain part of it's possible usage.
It is not necessarily unique to Isshinryu
Hiagonna Morio shows a similar kick at 1:50 in his 'bunkai' for Sesan kata. The leg movement is also partially related to the front leg front kick/stomp found in Tou'on Ryu, but with a different targeting.
Unfortunately too many view kicking as a steady state of kicks and haven't had the exposure to the depth of potential there simply because the destructive use of original kicking is ignored.
Watching the paucity of the Shimabuku Tatsuo video record you find something interesting, how his kicks are first fully chambered before they are delivered. The older standard for Okinawan kicking was the kicks were delivered at the same distance you'd strike someone. The exacting old-style chamber made your kicks much harder to block, and if things got to close became a knee strike to open your opponent up.
What was worn for kicking was a value of the culture the art arose in. Originally there were no Okinawan dojo, or uniforms. Practice conducted in secret, you'd remove your outer clothing to protect them. Karate was developed for the Peruchin class, not the common person. You'd likely remove any footware to protect it as well as necessity for if you wore sandals they'd be an inhibitor for training.
As the initial value of training is just that, it's better for most to do so bare foot, to strengthen the foot correctly. But age, illness, etc. often require changes. To fully use the foot requires a wider range of conditioning than even the makiwawa might provide.
In Isshinryu the entire system of kicking can be done with shoes of any sort, but it takes time to understand how things might be modified for the footwear. Light flexible shoes provide some advantages but are unnecessary in the depth of study.
Of course 'real-men' study Uechi, with their toe tip kicking done bare foot, and spend time kicking tires to develop their power. Of course the issue isn't you have to do it that way, but to know who does to not let them kick you.
For myself I trained in many arts including Tam Tuie. They use toe tip kicks but with shoes, and the kicks are often delivered toe nail or ankle or lower shin height (depending on the Tam Tuie system and there are many).
The more the merrier, and let the kick rip away!
It is not necessarily unique to Isshinryu
Unfortunately too many view kicking as a steady state of kicks and haven't had the exposure to the depth of potential there simply because the destructive use of original kicking is ignored.
Watching the paucity of the Shimabuku Tatsuo video record you find something interesting, how his kicks are first fully chambered before they are delivered. The older standard for Okinawan kicking was the kicks were delivered at the same distance you'd strike someone. The exacting old-style chamber made your kicks much harder to block, and if things got to close became a knee strike to open your opponent up.
What was worn for kicking was a value of the culture the art arose in. Originally there were no Okinawan dojo, or uniforms. Practice conducted in secret, you'd remove your outer clothing to protect them. Karate was developed for the Peruchin class, not the common person. You'd likely remove any footware to protect it as well as necessity for if you wore sandals they'd be an inhibitor for training.
As the initial value of training is just that, it's better for most to do so bare foot, to strengthen the foot correctly. But age, illness, etc. often require changes. To fully use the foot requires a wider range of conditioning than even the makiwawa might provide.
In Isshinryu the entire system of kicking can be done with shoes of any sort, but it takes time to understand how things might be modified for the footwear. Light flexible shoes provide some advantages but are unnecessary in the depth of study.
Of course 'real-men' study Uechi, with their toe tip kicking done bare foot, and spend time kicking tires to develop their power. Of course the issue isn't you have to do it that way, but to know who does to not let them kick you.
For myself I trained in many arts including Tam Tuie. They use toe tip kicks but with shoes, and the kicks are often delivered toe nail or ankle or lower shin height (depending on the Tam Tuie system and there are many).
The more the merrier, and let the kick rip away!
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RobinTKD
Blue Belt
A lot of people train in shoes at my TKD class, i personally don't, but years of running (and running barefoot) have built some nice callouses that stop me from getting blisters. Also, my choice of shoes always depends on how much movement i can get with my foot inside, if the shoe is too stiff i'll walk away, it's the same with jeans, if they don't allow me to comfortable stretch a legs 90 degrees apart, then i won't buy them either, same with shirts being too restrictive. Personally, i train in barefoot for more or less the same reason i punch a makiwara, conditioning, my feet are already well conditioned on the bottom, but when striking the 'man pads' (as we call them) I'm also conditioning my instep, heel/foot sword etc. My feet can take a lot of punishment now, to the point where walking across my gravel drive back to my house is actually pretty comfortable barefoot.
I have been thinking about introducing shoes to some of our sessions. I know myself the first couple times you kick with heavy shoes on it almost takes you foot of as your not used to it ! Also in real life your attacked in alleyway you cant ask them to take there shoes off or wait while you take yours off(though they may think your so barmy the will leave you alone!)
I was wandering if any one training Shotokan has issue with pulling the toes back with shoes on? I imagine even if you can not with shoes on it would not matter as the shoes will protect you from injury .
I was wandering if any one training Shotokan has issue with pulling the toes back with shoes on? I imagine even if you can not with shoes on it would not matter as the shoes will protect you from injury .
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