Why do we do it?

[loki09789]

1. Please look at the boldfaced statements...Like I said before, "sex for procreation only" is the dogma of the church and I don't know why we are arguing about this because you seem to have a good grasp on that concept.



2. I don't think that birth control is a sin either. I would like to point out that the position above is basically stating that all sex acts must leave open the possibility of pregnancy. Again, this is showing the belief that I've been pointing out.

3. Oh that is silly. It's not killing if you are not successful. And like a said before, two people can have sex and walk away satisfied and happy. That will not happen with killing. They are not interchangeable.

4. I believe the example that I used had 16-19 year olds participating in sex acts. When you lower the age limit lots of other factors come into play. Maturity for one thing. In my opinion, there is no way in hell an eight year old could give consent for sex. Saying that one does not believe that sex is procreation only opens the field for what is acceptable, but it does not mean that anything goes. There are other factors...[/QUOTE

1. Dodging....okay, whatever. I don't think that you are looking at it. I said allows children to be possible NOT the ONLY reason for sex. Your undermining yourself when you keep to the 'only' portion. I would say it is a siginificant factor but not the ONLY one in the eyes of Christians/Catholics.

2. "Open to the possibility" sounds a heck of a lot like "allows...children to be possible" which is different from "only" by quite a bit.

3. Your correct, and it isn't procreation if you don't get pregnant....Silly...I don't know. The courts seem to recognized things like "attempted murder" charges and 'silly' stuff like that.

4. You said pederasty which is the engaging of sex, usually sodomistic in nature, between a man and a boy/child. By your own view, if people have sex for so many 'natural' reasons, pederasty should be acceptable as well. Your words.

 

[Makalakumu]

I thought the moral bar was that love is sacred is holiest when it is done as an act of love and fidelity between a man and woman in marriage within the christian docrtrine. Children are an obvious and direct result from regular sexual practice if things work out right.

Its not the obvious result, its the desired result. There are plenty of bible passages that speak to this. Heck, Deuteronomy flat out says that sex is for babies only.

As far as I can tell, the basic message is that if your going to engage in sex, be prepared for the consequences - children. AND be prepared to take responsibility for those consequences/results - parental responsibility because life is precious and sacred.

Consequences = children.

I have never heard a priest or lay person of the Catholic faith or any other tell me individually or in mass/church that sex was only meant to make babies. That includes going through the confirmation process and participation in the Pre Cana process as we were getting married. Catholics generally are asked during the interview with the priest for Pre Cana of we would intended to have and would welcome children into our lives. To which the answer was yes. The priest never said that when we lay down together we should only be doing so in an effort to get her pregnant.

I have heard priests preach exactly that. My wife and I even took a Natural Family Planning class that emphasized that...and voila, we had our first child shortly afterward. Oh, and by the way, I was Baptised, Confessed, Communed, Confirmed and Married Catholic.

Based on your idea that 'procreation only' priests would be advising women and men that can't have children for what ever reason that they would be sinning by engaging in sexual acts since it doesn't result in pregnancy. That dog don't hunt for me.

Priests advise homosexuals to not have sex because they can't have children and its wrong in God's eyes. That dog don't hunt for me.

By limiting sex to a man and a woman, that is symbolic of the view that sex is for procreation only, because, you know, God, just might work a miracle.

 

[loki09789]

I have heard priests preach exactly that. My wife and I even took a Natural Family Planning class that emphasized that...and voila, we had our first child shortly afterward. Oh, and by the way, I was Baptised, Confessed, Communed, Confirmed and Married Catholic.

So you went to a "Family Planning class" that emphasized sex for procreation...what a surprise.....

So was I and also attended sessions concerning the Vatican II (not 2000, my bad. Catholic 2.0 - faster, more guilty than ever ) doctrinal shifts. the two priests that attended the Confirmation process conducted the Vat II sessions and one of them conducted our wedding. Their session discussions on this topic are what I am mainly working from for this discussion.

The sticking point is the "ONLY" part of sex and procreation. I seriously don't know a single person, Catholic or not, that truly believes and espouses to the idea that sex should only be for procreation.

By that view, sex isn't about LOVE or GOD it is about producing bodies. By that view, the church would be requiring medical exams for procreative compatability as approval for marriage of couples. "I'm sorry, your sperm aren't going to work with her ovaries and you won't make babies....NO MARRIAGE FOR YOU!"

Please.

 

[Makalakumu]

So you went to a "Family Planning class" that emphasized sex for procreation...what a surprise.....

So was I and also attended sessions concerning the Vatican II (not 2000, my bad. Catholic 2.0 - faster, more guilty than ever ) doctrinal shifts. the two priests that attended the Confirmation process conducted the Vat II sessions and one of them conducted our wedding. Their session discussions on this topic are what I am mainly working from for this discussion.

The sticking point is the "ONLY" part of sex and procreation. I seriously don't know a single person, Catholic or not, that truly believes and espouses to the idea that sex should only be for procreation.

By that view, sex isn't about LOVE or GOD it is about producing bodies. By that view, the church would be requiring medical exams for procreative compatability as approval for marriage of couples. "I'm sorry, your sperm aren't going to work with her ovaries and you won't make babies....NO MARRIAGE FOR YOU!"

Please.

If anything, this post is witty

You are forgetting the symbolism involved and focusing too much on the actual biology...go figure. The symbolism and the strictures imply "only" whether people actually believe it our not. The bible says "only" multiple times through analogy or by straight out saying it.

I do not believe that sex is for procreation only and I believe that there are lots of other factors that naturally come into play. It doesn't surprise me that you can't find any peers that believe this. It goes against our nature.

With that being said, I think that many of the sexual restrictions based off of this concept and generally accepted by society still, go against our nature.

The point of this thread was to look at this concept. See what people actually believe and then talk about the implications of those beliefs. Believe that sex is for more then procreation litterally cancels out a great many societal strictures on sex and I don't know if people realize this.

BTW - discussions of pedastery and talking about consent and maturity and responsibility, that is all part of the discussion, too. If there are lots of other factors that drive humans to have sex, what is appropriate and what isn't?

 

[loki09789]

Priests advise homosexuals to not have sex because they can't have children and its wrong in God's eyes. That dog don't hunt for me.

.

Actually it's more about the Sodomistic nature of the nature of the sex that causes problems for Christian types than the 'it won't produce children' aspect. Remember that at it's roots, Christianity is based in Judeism. "Back in the day" of places like Sodom and Ghomora (sp?), sexual free for alls and orgies were tempting good Jewish folks away from the flock.

 

[Makalakumu]

Actually it's more about the Sodomistic nature of the nature of the sex that causes problems for Christian types than the 'it won't produce children' aspect. Remember that at it's roots, Christianity is based in Judeism. "Back in the day" of places like Sodom and Ghomora (sp?), sexual free for alls and orgies were tempting good Jewish folks away from the flock.

Look at the context of the sodom and gemorah story. Look at the sexual strictures the bible talks about surrounding that story. In some bibles, sodomy is against jewish law because it is considered unnatural and ungodly.

 

[loki09789]

If anything, this post is witty

You are forgetting the symbolism involved and focusing too much on the actual biology...go figure. The symbolism and the strictures imply "only" whether people actually believe it our not. The bible says "only" multiple times through analogy or by straight out saying it.

The point of this thread was to look at this concept. See what people actually believe and then talk about the implications of those beliefs. Believe that sex is for more then procreation litterally cancels out a great many societal strictures on sex and I don't know if people realize this.

BTW - discussions of pedastery and talking about consent and maturity and responsibility, that is all part of the discussion, too. If there are lots of other factors that drive humans to have sex, what is appropriate and what isn't?

What symbolism are you discussing? How am I focusing on the 'biology' too much? The 'bible' doesn't say a thing as much as gets interpretted by people that want to use it to support their beliefs.

What is symbolic about an absolute term like 'only.' The bible also has incidents where brother marries sisters or daughters have sex with fathers yet those are not accepted as practice in the church. If your talking about parables, cautionary tales, inspiration tales or something like that I can't tell.

Nothing is 'cancelled' out simply because people recognize the complexities in sexual motives and practices. I think that people realize that there is more than one way to skin a cat on this topic. Look at the media/internet and more.

The fact that people say "yeah, sex can be for XYZ reasons" simply means that they know about them, not that they approve of them.

Societal/cultural restrictions on sex, marriage, or any other personal act have evolved because of the conflict between what is good for the group and what is good for the individual. Whether catholic or otherwise, any social restriction has to acknowledge that there are other reasons for something like sex in order for it to focus on those motives/practices that it wants to support.

 

[loki09789]

Look at the context of the sodom and gemorah story. Look at the sexual strictures the bible talks about surrounding that story. In some bibles, sodomy is against jewish law because it is considered unnatural and ungodly.

Yes let's look at the OT and the story of LOT.

Lot offers his daughters to the mob that is attempting to gang rape and defile the two messangers from God to do with as they wish if they agree to leave the messengers alone.

Lot's daughters seduce him with wine and sleep with him because they fear they are the last humans and must repopulate the Jewish tribe.

In other places in the bible:

Psalms has some of beautiful passion poetry that has been interpretted as very sexual/sensual and there is no mention of children being produced in them.

Sisters marry brothers/cousins.

Ruth seduces her dead husbands brother to stay a legal part of the family and is celebrated. .....the offspring of all these marriages and sexual acts are not struck down by God or suffer mutilation/deformity.

Adam and Eve were never 'married' by a formal ritual.

Joseph as Jesus' father is celebrated for ignoring Mosaic law and marrying his pregnant fiance.

Jesus pardon's an adulterous woman.

Jesus never marries and produces offspring himself (as far as the bible tells.).

There really is a very unclear message about sex in the Bible.

 

[lulflo]

I would offer the idea of energy. Evolution is achieved through the reproductive system and the fact that a female can provide and sustain life within her womb tells me that there is something there that has not been explained. Talk about being close to God. Creation of everything was the task of "God", but here is an example of something that was created and is now creating in and of itself. I think that there is an urge to be with God (whether conscious or not) and that sex is a way to achieve that closeness (specifically for males). It has been my experience, as a male, that women seem to have (some taking for granted) this closeness to God at all times, while males can only achieve this feeling by external means. I know very few men who have actually been able to meditate to this level, but I know many who know this closeness, without truly understanding it, by means of a LOVING, INTIMATE sexual experience - not necessarily casual sex. I think the difference is that one has the intent to be close with their spouse or significant other, rather than just "going for broke". I think that is enough said here though, and of course, this is just one male's opinion.

Farang - Larry

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes let's look at the OT and the story of LOT.

Lot offers his daughters to the mob that is attempting to gang rape and defile the two messangers from God to do with as they wish if they agree to leave the messengers alone.

Lot's daughters seduce him with wine and sleep with him because they fear they are the last humans and must repopulate the Jewish tribe.

In other places in the bible:

Psalms has some of beautiful passion poetry that has been interpretted as very sexual/sensual and there is no mention of children being produced in them.

Sisters marry brothers/cousins.

Ruth seduces her dead husbands brother to stay a legal part of the family and is celebrated. .....the offspring of all these marriages and sexual acts are not struck down by God or suffer mutilation/deformity.

Adam and Eve were never 'married' by a formal ritual.

Joseph as Jesus' father is celebrated for ignoring Mosaic law and marrying his pregnant fiance.

Jesus pardon's an adulterous woman.

Jesus never marries and produces offspring himself (as far as the bible tells.).

There really is a very unclear message about sex in the Bible.

So, what you are trying to say is that the bible is contradictory and confusing regarding its messages on sex?

I would agree, it is a poor choice. It seems to me that Catholic dogma on the matter picks and chooses the verses they want to follow.

I found some pamphlets I had received when I was younger that talk about sex for children being most "Godly".

Since every time one has sex, one cannot have a child, catholics say that one must be open to the possibility at all times. This pushes the thought of procreation for childbearing to its logical limits. This position takes into account the actual biology of the human body and shows a bit of the catholic open mindedness to science.

Of course, there is this song...

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammad, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine, and mine, and mine.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

 

[loki09789]

So, what you are trying to say is that the bible is contradictory and confusing regarding its messages on sex?

I would agree, it is a poor choice. It seems to me that Catholic dogma on the matter picks and chooses the verses they want to follow.

I found some pamphlets I had received when I was younger that talk about sex for children being most "Godly".

Since every time one has sex, one cannot have a child, catholics say that one must be open to the possibility at all times. This pushes the thought of procreation for childbearing to its logical limits. This position takes into account the actual biology of the human body and shows a bit of the catholic open mindedness to science.

Of course, there is this song...

Picking and choosing the sources that they want to follow.....hmmmmmm

As any individual/group/instititution will justify itself and his/its position on a topic/idea by citing 'proof' that has been selected precisely because it supports that idea but, when represented, neglects to acknowledge the multiple examples of supporting evidence to the contrary.....

"Most 'Godly'" does not mean that the church isn't aware that there are other reasons/motives for sex.

As I said, being open to the possibility of children is very different from 'sex only for procreation.' The 'only' aspect does not allow for the love/union/sacramental element of the act itself and only focuses on the product of that act. THat is not the message that laymem/women or leaders discussed anywhere that I went/talked about this stuff.

Again, I can make a laudry list of reasons why people kill, have sex, eat.....but that doesn't mean that I think ALL of those reasons on the list are healthy, safe or appropriate - it is only a list. If you had asked people "Why do we do it, and what are 'good' reasons/ways that we 'do it'" the responses would have been an illustration of 'acceptable/appropriate' and 'inappropriate' motives/acts/reasons.

As it is, it is just a laundry list.

 

[Makalakumu]

FYI - that song was from Monty Python. The title is "Every Sperm is Sacred" and it appeared in the comedy, "The Meaning of Life."

I realized I didn't credit the source in my above post when I reread this thread.

 

[loki09789]

FYI - that song was from Monty Python. The title is "Every Sperm is Sacred" and it appeared in the comedy, "The Meaning of Life."

I realized I didn't credit the source in my above post when I reread this thread.

Yes, I remember the skit about the Irish/Catholic family that had WAYYYY too many kids floating around too. In context it was pretty funny. Along with the sex ed. final exam where the teacher brought in a covey of prostitutes to use as 'test material' so to speak. Irreverent, but somehow classy in its own twisted way.

Anything sounds better with a British accent it seems.