Why do Ip Man's sons do Chum Kiu different?

[geezer]

Ive seen my Sifu make changes on the spot, to a form.

Well yeah. Sifu can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing.

My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube. I was present when he introduced certain modifications. They were not done because he wasn't taught the older version, but because he chose to make those changes.

 

[geezer]

One must be very careful making even slight changes in forms. We must remember that every movement , the detail of every position, the precise sequence, the breathing, structure, ...even how you pucker your anus in a stance... all these things are handed down to us unchanged through an unbroken lineage going back to the Ancient Masters.

We, today do not fully understand the wisdom of the ancients, and the hidden meanings of each detail. But if we accept this ancient wisdom and unquestioningly repeat these ancient, almost magical movement sets... If we perform them daily, rigorously, sincerely, and with the proper, meditative mind set, these "forms" (if they are truly the authentic and correct forms" work like a great prayer or incantation to confer upon us the near superhuman abilities of the ancient mystic warriors.

...Or is that something I saw in a really dumb cartoon?

 

[Flying Crane]

Well yeah. Sifu can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing.

My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube. I was present when he introduced certain modifications. They were not done because he wasn't taught the older version, but because he chose to make those changes.

Well, my Sifu was just an ordinary guy at one time. I honestly do not know just what his relationship is, with any “higher” organization. He clearly holds his teachers in high respect, but he does what he wants.

He changed a form on the spot because the older students were having difficulty with a jump kick. He just said, ok don’t do the kick; do this instead…

Once I said, “ hey Sifu, this particular form is mostly done on both sides, but this one segment is done twice on the same side and not done on the other. Why is that? Why not do it so it is completely done on both sides?” His response to me: “you can do it that way if you want, no problem.”

Really, I think he does not hold this stuff as sacred, and knows people can make changes. I think people assume they cannot, and are afraid to or are afraid to make suggestions, and it isn’t just an open free-for-all. But if people suggest something intelligent I think he would be supportive.

 

[Flying Crane]

One must be very careful making even slight changes in forms. We must remember that every movement , the detail of every position, the precise sequence, the breathing, structure, ...even how you pucker your anus in a stance... all these things are handed down to us unchanged through an unbroken lineage going back to the Ancient Masters.

We, today do not fully understand the wisdom of the ancients, and the hidden meanings of each detail. But if we accept this ancient wisdom and unquestioningly repeat these ancient, almost magical movement sets... If we perform them daily, rigorously, sincerely, and with the proper, meditative mind set, these "forms" (if they are truly the authentic and correct forms" work like a great prayer or incantation to confer upon us the near superhuman abilities of the ancient mystic warriors.

...Or is that something I saw in a really dumb cartoon?

Jeezuz, I thought you were being serious for a moment. Was working up a response to this nonsense…

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ive seen my Sifu make changes on the spot, to a form.

Not Wing Chun, but my first CMA sifu taught me a Wu style competition form. I was one f his earlier students. I was away for a couple years and went back for a bit. He had a Wu style class so I joined. There were changes to the form. After class I asked him about the changes, he insisted that there were none. I told him, that if he liked, I could bring in the video of the form he gave me to show him the differences. He then said, yes I did change some postures to make them easier.

Back to wing chun; I learned Siu Lim Tao from a student of Ip Ching. I later learned if from a student of Jack Ling and Augustine Fong. They are not exactly the same and both had there origin as Ip Man

 

[Poppity]

I kinda feel if there's this regimented approach that you can never change your form your essentially learning a wushu, or image only style.

In our approach our forms are supposed to change individually as you learn the applications within each set and develop preferences.

We all start learning the basic form with mo git or martial purity and then it develops and changes with your own knowledge and fighting style. Each of my kung Fu brothers has a slightly different style and form to one another because that is how we were taught.

We can all of course do the basic form and if teaching someone new, they would start with that, but we are not supposed to repeat the same stifled form exactly forever like a robot. It's all about your individual journey.

 

[Callen]

Well yeah. Sifu can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing.

Yeah, everyone waving the magic wand isn't necessarily a good thing.

My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube.

On a lighter note, I have been told this same thing by different first and second generation Yip Man guys. I am of the opinion that they all wish they were “one of the first” to possess the old film footage.

Like so many of the word-of-mouth Wing Chun stories, I guess it all depends on who you talk to.

 

[geezer]

Like so many of the word-of-mouth Wing Chun stories, I guess it all depends on who you talk to.

I know he had access to the footage early on and ....well let's just say that wasn't an entirely a good thing. Fortunately there were several copies floating around, otherwise we might not have that historical footage available today.

 

[geezer]

I learned Siu Lim Tao from a student of Ip Ching. I later learned if from a student of Jack Ling and Augustine Fong. They are not exactly the same and both had there origin as Ip Man

I'm way too lazy to learn several different versions of each form and practice them all. But I do like to see the movements or sections that are added, omitted or done differently. Last week a student who had previously learned an Ip Ching version of a form via Sam Kwok shared it in our little group. We had a good discussion about the different things each version trains. Then today, when working some movements in the Leung Ting "chi sau sections" we spotted a movement that was exactly like the Ip Ching version of the movement from the form.

So... you can't put everything into each form. Different masters will vary some on what they choose to put in the forms, but that doesn't mean that the stuff they left out isn't useful. You could fill a big book, heck, a lotta books with all the ways to apply Wing Chun. Each form is just an outline or index, typically focusing on core concepts. Applications are endless!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm way too lazy to learn several different versions of each form and practice them all. But I do like to see the movements or sections that are added, omitted or done differently. Last week a student who had previously learned an Ip Ching version of a form via Sam Kwok shared it in our little group. We had a good discussion about the different things each version trains. Then today, when working some movements in the Leung Ting "chi sau sections" we spotted a movement that was exactly like the Ip Ching version of the movement from the form.

So... you can't put everything into each form. Different masters will vary some on what they choose to put in the forms, but that doesn't mean that the stuff they left out isn't useful. You could fill a big book, heck, a lotta books with all the ways to apply Wing Chun. Each form is just an outline or index, typically focusing on core concepts. Applications are endless!

I don't want to give the wrong idea here, I'm not that driven either. I learned the Ip Ching version, and then stopped for a few years and later went back to learn it again with a different teacher, student of Fong and Ling.

 

[ShortBridge]

I was the first to get the old footage. Yip Man heard of me and flew to Texas in the late 60s to personally deliver it to me when I was 3 years old and though he didn't speak English and I was in the yard playing with Tonka trucks, he bestowed upon me the real secrets with his eyes.

 

[geezer]

I was the first to get the old footage. Yip Man heard of me and flew to Texas in the late 60s to personally deliver it to me when I was 3 years old and though he didn't speak English and I was in the yard playing with Tonka trucks, he bestowed upon me the real secrets with his eyes.

Boy am I jealous. And I thought I was special when GM Yip came to me in a dream and showed me the secret techniques. That was in the late 70s. Now I found out that he'd already been teaching others the same stuff!

But thats not why I'm jealous. I'm jealous of your Tonka trucks. Yep, back when I was a tyke in the early 60s I spent hours in the shade under our citrus trees playing with my friends, me with yellow steel Tonka dump truck, scraping away in the damp earth making roads, ramps and ditches, excavating in the soft dirt with our bare hands ....until we hit buried cat-poo. Hard to get that stuff out from under your nails.

 

[ShortBridge]

He told me about the fake stuff he was going to give you in dreams, it's different. I have the exclusive real-real.

With me, after that first, in person visit, it more like post-mortim Obi-Wan Knobi in the swamp.

 

[Argus]

A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
Everyone changes them, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, and sometimes in ways that I probably shouldn't judge without training that lineage.

I think I've learned four different versions of Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu at this point! I feel like a Wing Chun Mutt, and a bit of a detective at this point. I feel that everyone has a small piece of the puzzle, and nobody's understanding is entirely complete; many offering unsatisfactory takes on certain things, and very functional and insightful takes on others.

I can certainly see why one would develop their own forms, though. For example, I remember practicing the Yip Ching version of Chum Kiu when I was training that lineage, and in the bong/lan section, we shift our weight drastically to 0/100 even when shifting only to 45 degrees. Well, I found that in chisao, when I did that exact same movement in contact with an opponent, it was very consistently throwing me off balance and creating this "emptiness" that my opponent could just steam roller into and knock me off balance. So I now practice that section keeping my weight more centered, because it really needs to be more forward when you are shifting with contact, such that you turn your opponent rather than allowing him to knock you over. This is perhaps more obvious to me because of my very light and thin build, such that mistakes like this are amplified when I am rolling with people twice my size.

Of course, my teacher would have corrected me then and told me that was wrong. I guess one has to become a teacher themselves before making minor tweaks to the forms? I'm pretty sure Yip Man's students did that throughout their training though, and long before they learned the whole system.

 

[Jut]

A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
Everyone changes them, sometimes for better,

You don't actually know what happened. They were taught different, which was expected from both the Chinese culture and their understanding that everyone is different. In that arena, it would have been insulting to be taught in a cookie-cutter way.
When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught. If you could see any hand form, knife, Moi-fa, etc. demonstrated by SiFu Edwards, SiFu Doc Savage, and/or SiFu Dave Meadow's.. you'd know what I mean. Taught by the same SiFu, yet.. totally different.

 

[geezer]

...When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught....

Has this changed now that Duncan Leung has changed to "Applied Wing Chun"?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't know, but I do know this.

 

[ShortBridge]

A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
...

I don't have the "truth", but I think we look at those videos and say "this is how Yip Man did it", but we don't actually know that's how he did it his whole life. It is possible that he had more than one iteration of each form and he was just filmed doing one of them. I know a very senior sifu in another southern system who this applies to.

...
When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught. If you could see any hand form, knife, Moi-fa, etc. demonstrated by SiFu Edwards, SiFu Doc Savage, and/or SiFu Dave Meadow's.. you'd know what I mean. Taught by the same SiFu, yet.. totally different.

Wow, this forum doesn't get mention of Dave Meadows. I think this might be the first time I remember.

 

[ytjer6t654uy6hy]

Well, my Sifu was just an ordinary guy at one time. I honestly do not know just what his relationship is, with any “higher” organization. He clearly holds his teachers in high respect, but he does what he wants.

He changed a form on the spot because the older students were having difficulty with a jump kick. He just said, ok don’t do the kick; do this instead…

Once I said, “ hey Sifu, this particular form is mostly done on both sides, but this one segment is done twice on the same side and not done on the other. Why is that? Why not do it so it is completely done on both sides?” His response to me: “you can do it that way if you want, no problem.”

Really, I think he does not hold this stuff as sacred, and knows people can make changes. I think people assume they cannot, and are afraid to or are afraid to make suggestions, and it isn’t just an open free-for-all. But if people suggest something intelligent I think he would be supportive.