Why 'Chunners aren't good fighters...
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Poor Uke
Green Belt
You've never played Judo have you?
Poor Uke
Green Belt
I dont think WC people cant fight, I have never said that!
My point is that it is limited. Sure we can all talk about "oo oo in the ring its not like out in der street" and yeah there is some truth to that BUT if the only way you can validate your art is by getting killed then there is something wrong isnt there?
This thing about range that chinaboxer has brought up is an odd thing to say IMO. Many arts thrive on closing the gap as mentioned in mty last post Judoka love to get contact.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Agreed, all MA styles can fall into this. One of the most amazing learning experiences I have had in MA over the years was being part of a group of martial artists form different styles (Shaolin, Mantis, TKD, Aikido, kempo, etc), several years ago, that got together about one a week just to spar. That was a very cool learning experience and at times a bit of an eye opener. I got one hell of a SPM smack down out on me there :EG:
Check here he is not just Wing Chun
The ring can be equally as limited though and I am not ready to jump on the lets all go hop in the ring and prove our worth band wagon. Nor am I condoning go out and start a street fight either.
There are 2 general versions of Sanshou (Sanda) and that is sport and non-sport but there are 2 versions within non-sport; civilian and Police/Military. Sport Sanshou, (see Cung Le) can and has proved itself in the ring time and time again but very few Police/Miltary practitioners will jump into the ring to fight with all they have been trained to do it is simply against the rules. They will jump in from time to time in the sports venue but they have to change their attitude about the fight and take away some of what they train. However just because a person that trains the police/military version does not jump into the ring to prove his ability does not mean he cannot fight or that he has any lack of skill or is unable to defend him/herself, they are pretty competent fighters actually. And it is not because of any eye gouge. Punch em’ in the chest, rip out their heart, show it to em’ before they die and toss it in the bean dip training, it is simply training and training hard and I can tell you form experience that training hard in that version of Sanshou hurts…a lot from time to time.
And there are a multitude of arts that like to close the gap, Taiji and Xingyi being 2 of them, BUT….. they do not approach it in the same way and Wing Chun is different in its approach as well and I can only assume that Judo has its own approach too.
I think between what yak sao posted about tunnel vision and chinaboxer's post on not being taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them and not having or forgetting the basics of wing Chun (which may be in another of his posts) is very much part of the issue for more arts than Wing Chun. certainly more arts than many MA practitioners are willing to admit. And I will add for some it is a lack of wanting to train properly because damn that hurts.
I do know there are Wing Chun practitioners that can fight but just because one trains Wing Chun does not necessarily mean they can fight and just because they don't jump into a ring to prove it does not mean they can't, which is no different that any other martial art on the planet.
And for the record (and a bit of irony) For a long time I have felt that a combination of Wing Chun and Judo would be a pretty damn effective combination
Judo is a sport.
I practised judo for quite a while when I was a kid/teens.
Great sport and some good insights for balance/groundwork etc...even some grappling.
Judo is not a ma I would put in my arsenal. Although I suppose I already have as I have studied it already!!
I do not cross train but have studied quite a few ma's. So I hope I have some kind of idea of what to expect,
I am too old to fight though. ;-)
I practised judo for quite a while when I was a kid/teens.
Great sport and some good insights for balance/groundwork etc...even some grappling.
Judo is not a ma I would put in my arsenal. Although I suppose I already have as I have studied it already!!
I do not cross train but have studied quite a few ma's. So I hope I have some kind of idea of what to expect,
I am too old to fight though. ;-)
Poor Uke
Green Belt
Nice post
dungeonworks
Black Belt
Nobody every said sports were THE ultimate testing ground, just the most realistic that we have. I will say MMA is the best testing ground that we have today.
What area are you from?
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Hon, many, many folks claim that the ring is the "ultimate" testing ground for an arts functionality. Hell, It's been proclaimed that wing chun is no good in the street because it hasn't won a UFC championship! lol!
By the way, the word "ultimate" really means that last. as in extinct. The only one left. so, therefore the "ultimate fighter" is the last man standing?! the best of all?
ha!
sigh. Sorry, don't mean to pick a fight, again. lol!
ChiSau King, Wing Chun just isn't gonna have that kind of reconition, and a good thing too. It's traditional for WC/WT to be known like it is. It was a "secret" art for a long time durning the Chinese revolution. Something to get folks to be effective fighters in a short amount of time, but taught on a one on one basis if not a very small amount of students at a time.
It was never designed for teaching large classes, making a bunch of money (although folks have figured out how to do that. lol!) or for being a "mainstream" form of fighting.
Wing Chun is for the fighters,
"Long live the fighters!"
Poor Uke
Green Belt
Hi Si Ji do you have any other MA experience?
I can only go on my own experince of MAs and ts a similar story to many people I have talked to.
I studied WC intently for years andgot as far a junior instructor level. i then decided to test it out against other styles. To date I have been beaten by a number of Judo players, a growing number of Arnis players, BJJ players and comletely F@*king trashed by a boxer (on a number of occasions).
Now dont get me wrong I did on occasion come out on top but that was almost always against people who hadnt been training long!!!!
I aint no fool I realised that what I had been training in for years just wasnt as effective as I thought when pressure tested. I do mean pressure tested.
AND THIS WASNT EVEN IN DER STR33t
D'ya get it??? NOT EVEN UNDER NORMAL SPARRING CONDITIONS WAS IT EFFECTIVE
Phew rant over and that said I have learnt some invaluable lessons from WC that have and will always be part of my MA training, Chi Sau to name one.......
And another thing if somebody says "well there are some d34dly techniques that you wouldnt do when sparring" you ar making a childish assumption that people dont know how to counter being poked in the face or getting to positions where you could eat their goolies.
I can only go on my own experince of MAs and ts a similar story to many people I have talked to.
I studied WC intently for years andgot as far a junior instructor level. i then decided to test it out against other styles. To date I have been beaten by a number of Judo players, a growing number of Arnis players, BJJ players and comletely F@*king trashed by a boxer (on a number of occasions).
Now dont get me wrong I did on occasion come out on top but that was almost always against people who hadnt been training long!!!!
I aint no fool I realised that what I had been training in for years just wasnt as effective as I thought when pressure tested. I do mean pressure tested.
AND THIS WASNT EVEN IN DER STR33t
D'ya get it??? NOT EVEN UNDER NORMAL SPARRING CONDITIONS WAS IT EFFECTIVE
Phew rant over and that said I have learnt some invaluable lessons from WC that have and will always be part of my MA training, Chi Sau to name one.......
And another thing if somebody says "well there are some d34dly techniques that you wouldnt do when sparring" you ar making a childish assumption that people dont know how to counter being poked in the face or getting to positions where you could eat their goolies.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
All I can say is your mileage may vary.
First I will say I did not use Wing Chun for any of this
I got trashed by an SPM guy but I did not think what I was doing would not work, I just trained more. I beat a lot of Aikido guys but got my butt kicked by an Aikido woman that was half my size. I have beaten and have been beaten by TKD guys and at least one of them that I spared several times beat me sometimes and other times I beat him and occasionally we just called it a draw.
But back to the SPM guy, I was using what I previously had learned from Jujitsu and TKD and trying to apply taiji and he was trashing me. However when I tried to apply what little I knew at the time of Xingyiquan I knocked him down. But since he could pop back up like a weeble and I only knew a little Xingyi I then got trashed and you know what.... it was all good... very cool.... and I learned a lot.
Your Wing Chun not working does not mean all wing chun does not work. And just because someone studies any MA for a long time does not mean they know squat about applying it and it could be that you simply are not good a Wing Chun where you would be awesome at Judo. IT also could be that those beatings you took you should study very closely to see where you went wrong or how you could do better. Read about Wang Xiangzhai, he is one of the few CMA masters that actually admits to being beaten....that is prior to developing Yiquan and after that like all old time CMA masters he was never defeated
.Now with all that said, I am going to say something that may get me into trouble. I do honestly feel that a lot of Wing Chun people out there over estimate their ability because a lot of Wing Chun people out there get so hung up in Wing Chun that after a short time they start to believe it is the ultimate MA (Hell that is where Bruce Lee came from after all
) and from that starts a "Why should I spar any other style...I'm to good" mentallity. I will have to tell the story someday about the Wing Chun guy (who had been at Wing Chun for about 1 year) that came to my taiji sifu's class (to learn taiji) and started telling him how much better Wing Chun was because it had punches and strikes and taiji didn't . My taiji sifu has been at this for over 50 years by the way. But I am going off track, suffice to say there are a lot of MA people that over estimate their ability in all possible venues for a fight. I think there are more than a few MMA doing that right now based on what they see on TV. Now before I become the target of a combined MMA/Wing Chun hunt and beat down (which I likely would lose) I want to say that regardless of all that, just like any other MA on the planet, there are some pretty impressive people out there in Wing Chun (as well as MMA) that I would not want to go up against for any price. They are just damn good Martial Artists and I have always been impressed by a good wing chun person, as well as a good MMA person. They are both amazing to watch, but just because one trains Wing Chun (or any other MA) does not necessarily mean they are good at it.
And like I said in another post, just because someone demands proof of their effectiveness (beit street fight or ring) does not necessarily produce in them the need to prove anything.... and that is likely doubled if they are in fact Mainland Chinese.
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Poor Uke
Green Belt
Here we go again,.....
Mmmm I wonder why this keeps comming up on all the MA boards....mmmmmmmmmm
Xue Sheng I agree with all you have said and I am now aware that for me Wing Chun just doesnt cut it.
Just sometimes it gets my back up when I here people saying silly things about any style really and Wing Chun seems to be a particularly bad style for this kind of thing.
Yes I know MMA types do it too but this is a Wing Chun forum!
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When I started this thread, it wasn't because I doubted the effectiveness of WC/WT. I know it can be very effective, and has produced some awesome fighters. But the way I see it, there are a couple of problems with some of the WC/WT I run across these days:
1. Since WC/WT isn't a prominent, popular sport, but a somewhat off-beat art that takes time to learn, it doesn't attract the best athletes, and "natural fighters". Some of these do study Wing Chun, but a most end up elsewhere.
2. WC/WT is a "thinking man's" art and does attract a lot of educated, professional types who love the depth of this art, but even though they may become quite proficient, they do not have a fighter's temperment.
3. This is the bad part, which I think you were referring to in the remark I quoted above. Some WC/WT people get so caught up in the "theoretical" side of the art that they become grossly deluded as to the extent of their abilities. They actually believe that they are great fighters without having any real-life justification. They go around making outrageous claims that they can't back up and give this great system a bad name.
Now, just for the record, I'm an older guy who's definitely more into the technical/theoretical side of the art than the practical/fighting side. These days, I do more light chi-sau than heavy sparring. It's what I enjoy. But I'm under no illusion that this will make me a kick-*** fighter.
IMHO A good fighter needs to train his practical skills, mental attitude, and heavily condition his body. He needs to cross-train enough to really understand his opponent, and above all, he needs real experience before he goes around shooting-off his mouth.
In short, I think there is plenty of room in WC/WT for both theoreticians and practical fighters. But we could do without the braggarts who can't produce.
dungeonworks
Black Belt
How is wing chun gonna get respect and credibility back then if all we have are claims and no outlet to display it? From the outside looking in, why would someone take it seriously? In Michigan, most Chunners are training in pole barns, basements, and garages. They are very hard to find. MMA, Boxing, K-1 Kickboxing....they all are out there and visible and why people respect them because they SEE them. Thats where the Chun dissing and disrespect comes from I think.
wushuguy
Purple Belt
Poor Uke, out of curiosity, how much more experienced were the other fighters compared to yourself, and how fast did you progress to junior instructor level?
Sad to say, but not all Wing Chun schools are the same. as is said many times, the ones that produce good fighters are generally not advertising much. It's a very close knit group. Some comercialized schools are more visable, but because of comercialization, the teaching is adapted to the larger class sizes, so some times students don't get the kind of attention they generally need. (although there is at least one commercial school i know of that does produce good fighters) Wing Chun isn't an easy art to grasp, it takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to make it work, not just knowing the motions.
Wing Chun is very effective if one finds the right sifu and also if the student is talented.
It was my experience that sparring TKD, karateka, boxers, "street fighters", and a few escrima guys, that Wing Chun is very effective against single and multiple opponents.
Train against other styles is good, so we can see our own limitations in understanding. Before I liked training in other styles too, and also started to make my own style (mili quan), but the more I understand when comparing the different styles I have learned, it was the foundation of Wing Chun that let me understand how other styles work, and to disect and find the essence of the other style's movement... anyway sorry for starting to get off topic, but yeah, good fighter or not... really depends on the quality of the sifu (coach) and the capability of the student (fighter)
Sad to say, but not all Wing Chun schools are the same. as is said many times, the ones that produce good fighters are generally not advertising much. It's a very close knit group. Some comercialized schools are more visable, but because of comercialization, the teaching is adapted to the larger class sizes, so some times students don't get the kind of attention they generally need. (although there is at least one commercial school i know of that does produce good fighters) Wing Chun isn't an easy art to grasp, it takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to make it work, not just knowing the motions.
Wing Chun is very effective if one finds the right sifu and also if the student is talented.
It was my experience that sparring TKD, karateka, boxers, "street fighters", and a few escrima guys, that Wing Chun is very effective against single and multiple opponents.
Train against other styles is good, so we can see our own limitations in understanding. Before I liked training in other styles too, and also started to make my own style (mili quan), but the more I understand when comparing the different styles I have learned, it was the foundation of Wing Chun that let me understand how other styles work, and to disect and find the essence of the other style's movement... anyway sorry for starting to get off topic, but yeah, good fighter or not... really depends on the quality of the sifu (coach) and the capability of the student (fighter)
this very subject came up in class last nite. and sifu said he believes that a lot of sifus taught flawed techniqes on purpose to stop anyone becoming better than them,either for power and control of a school or for ego reasons,thus unless the student was a natural fighter and could see the flaws and undo them himself or just be good even with bad taught technique wing chun was effectively being diluted for "real use in the real world"
but luckily there are enough teachers out there that use what they have learnt adapt it and teach their versions so that it now does work.
my sifu trains with and teaches boxers mma guys and when he shows them his wing chun, they can see there is no doubt it works..... perhaps not as a traditionalist would see it tho!
he has also gone to hong kong and shown them that their wing chun doesnt work and why and is constasntly amazed by that fact
matsu
but luckily there are enough teachers out there that use what they have learnt adapt it and teach their versions so that it now does work.
my sifu trains with and teaches boxers mma guys and when he shows them his wing chun, they can see there is no doubt it works..... perhaps not as a traditionalist would see it tho!
he has also gone to hong kong and shown them that their wing chun doesnt work and why and is constasntly amazed by that fact
matsu
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
A prevalent theme/discussion in all martial activities that are not sports oriented is this one.
One problem is the teaching the skills and transmission of knowledge. First, you have a good, talented Martial Practitioner and Teacher.
He teaches a lot of students.
Some are more athletic and have the fire to compete, and get into fights, sports or otherwise, and wins. The flavor and orientation of his teachings and learnings is moving towards this.
Another student is a scholar that loves to find out why things work in his martial activity. This one codifies and really gets into the details and gains a lot of knowledge into why things work and can teach the individual pieces in a repeatable manner.
Another student loves the mental and behavioral effects of Martial Activities and seeks to use it as a tool for self perfection and discipline. The philosophy behind it is also very important, so his lessons and learnings focus on that.
So, you see, the important thing here is the Teacher and individual instructor. This person will steer the Martial Method (in this case, Wing Chun) the way they want and prefer to.
You don't go to the philosopher to learn how to fight or compete. You go to the scholar to get better at what you do, and practice with the competitor students to test it out!
You send you kids to the philosopher, and go to him to learn the history and development of the Skills. He most probably also knows the healing applications too.
If you get a Teacher that knows all areas well, consider yourself lucky.
There are many that learn and then stop learning as if what they were taught is all. These people don't get better with time. The ones that learned how to learn as part of the process of learning are the ones that evolve their Kung Fu to higher and higher levels.
I just hope more take the name seriously, "eternal Springtime", and keep on growing stronger and more powerful, without a Fall or Winter to break them down.
At least that is what I'm working for, and for the most part, am succeeding! I know many others are too!
Sincerely,
Juan Mercado-Robles
Wing Chun Kung Fu Si Fu
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina
Guardian Lions Kung Fu Kwoon
A prevalent theme/discussion in all martial activities that are not sports oriented is this one.
One problem is the teaching the skills and transmission of knowledge. First, you have a good, talented Martial Practitioner and Teacher.
He teaches a lot of students.
Some are more athletic and have the fire to compete, and get into fights, sports or otherwise, and wins. The flavor and orientation of his teachings and learnings is moving towards this.
Another student is a scholar that loves to find out why things work in his martial activity. This one codifies and really gets into the details and gains a lot of knowledge into why things work and can teach the individual pieces in a repeatable manner.
Another student loves the mental and behavioral effects of Martial Activities and seeks to use it as a tool for self perfection and discipline. The philosophy behind it is also very important, so his lessons and learnings focus on that.
So, you see, the important thing here is the Teacher and individual instructor. This person will steer the Martial Method (in this case, Wing Chun) the way they want and prefer to.
You don't go to the philosopher to learn how to fight or compete. You go to the scholar to get better at what you do, and practice with the competitor students to test it out!
You send you kids to the philosopher, and go to him to learn the history and development of the Skills. He most probably also knows the healing applications too.
If you get a Teacher that knows all areas well, consider yourself lucky.
There are many that learn and then stop learning as if what they were taught is all. These people don't get better with time. The ones that learned how to learn as part of the process of learning are the ones that evolve their Kung Fu to higher and higher levels.
I just hope more take the name seriously, "eternal Springtime", and keep on growing stronger and more powerful, without a Fall or Winter to break them down.
At least that is what I'm working for, and for the most part, am succeeding! I know many others are too!
Sincerely,
Juan Mercado-Robles
Wing Chun Kung Fu Si Fu
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina
Guardian Lions Kung Fu Kwoon
Poor Uke
Green Belt
Hi it took me 6 years to get to that level. I dont doubt by WC Sifu's ability nor that of his senior students.
I like WC but it aint the be all and end all of fighting systems and for me not the most effective.
For what its worth. Judo is fun but wing chun contains several very effective throws that actually are effective and work in fights. Also many locking methods as well.
For example look at you tube vids of the judo olympic competition. How many fancy hip throws etc do you see when the opponent is skilled and resisting?
The best fighting system is the one that you are most comfortable with. Wing Chun has always worked for me but it wont for everyone.
The weakness is most wing chun training is the use of proper body structure and the lower body while moving at speed. Most wing chun teachers focus on the cool flashy hand things and not on what really powers and makes wing chun work. With the knowledge of the use of the lower body wing chun will never really pay off as a fighting method when faced with trained opponents.
For example look at you tube vids of the judo olympic competition. How many fancy hip throws etc do you see when the opponent is skilled and resisting?
The best fighting system is the one that you are most comfortable with. Wing Chun has always worked for me but it wont for everyone.
The weakness is most wing chun training is the use of proper body structure and the lower body while moving at speed. Most wing chun teachers focus on the cool flashy hand things and not on what really powers and makes wing chun work. With the knowledge of the use of the lower body wing chun will never really pay off as a fighting method when faced with trained opponents.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Okay, Uke. lol!
I used to be the "ultimate" Uke when I took JJJ. funny how big strong guys like to throw a wee wisp of a gal all around the room to prove that their martial art works.
Ouch! **** that. never again do I have to defend and fight like that again, thank you very much!l lol!
This guy keeps coming up to my work asking me to go to his MMA/BJJ/Hapkido school to "spar".
Look, I just left a reeeeeaaaallly ****in bad realtionship and just want to work and pay bills and take care of my daugher. p.s. I don't have any medical insurance if I get hurt for some ******** "sparring" match.
hense probably why I take stuff so "personal" lol!
no room for error.
But, he seems a nice guy. lol! right. whatever. he's wanting me to come to his school and train, and trying to tell me that they have a "daycare" for my daughter. (sorry dudes, when I train, my baby girl is gonna be right there. she Loves kung fu)
Anyways, just another MMA guy that wants' to spar for free. But,,... I like him, he's not MMA, he's Hapkido, so I'll probably end up visiting his school later. After my "boxing" is "fixed" . Wooo! it's pretty bad! lol!
And after I get my control back, so I can spar without damage to others.
But, to awnser your question, yes,... I have sparred with you MMA folks a couple of times. Just this time I have to go to your school and follow your rulez, which I don't know those rules. I mean, I can nicely train and respectively lightly spar or whatever, but if your going to hit me, then ****!
I need to take my glasses off and take out my retainer because I'm not ****ing around when it comes to someone really trying to hit and hurt me. lol!
lol!
Whatever!
Sorry about the weird tanget. didn't mean to go there. I just don't want to go to another damn school and find out I'm fighting someone I don't even know because of their damn teachers! What a crock of ****!
If MA folks can't be civil.?~!
I don't want to 'play" anymore.
I only fight when I HAVE to. not for sport or money. and **** MMA! They just sold out the best MA for profit. Their bastards,
and deserve to.....
!!!!
I think I'll go see my "friend" that keeps coming up to my work and "talking" to me about coming to his school. either he wants to lure me there to have me be beat 2+to one or, maybe he's a good dude.
Hummmm.... I wonder wich? Guess Ill just have to have the balls to see. lol
p.s. I'm NOT bringing my daughter to the schools "day care". lol!
Me and baby girl go to Sifu's class once a week, and she's apart of class. She's a good girl and stays out of the way when folks get roudy, and sits with me to watch Sifu.
Bty mook jong man, this guy is really, really good! Totally different linage though. but, now their doing the form like SLT form like your lineage. neat.
love all ya'll!
Nikki
I used to be the "ultimate" Uke when I took JJJ. funny how big strong guys like to throw a wee wisp of a gal all around the room to prove that their martial art works.
Ouch! **** that. never again do I have to defend and fight like that again, thank you very much!l lol!
This guy keeps coming up to my work asking me to go to his MMA/BJJ/Hapkido school to "spar".
Look, I just left a reeeeeaaaallly ****in bad realtionship and just want to work and pay bills and take care of my daugher. p.s. I don't have any medical insurance if I get hurt for some ******** "sparring" match.
hense probably why I take stuff so "personal" lol!
no room for error.
But, he seems a nice guy. lol! right. whatever. he's wanting me to come to his school and train, and trying to tell me that they have a "daycare" for my daughter. (sorry dudes, when I train, my baby girl is gonna be right there. she Loves kung fu)
Anyways, just another MMA guy that wants' to spar for free. But,,... I like him, he's not MMA, he's Hapkido, so I'll probably end up visiting his school later. After my "boxing" is "fixed" . Wooo! it's pretty bad! lol!
And after I get my control back, so I can spar without damage to others.
But, to awnser your question, yes,... I have sparred with you MMA folks a couple of times. Just this time I have to go to your school and follow your rulez, which I don't know those rules. I mean, I can nicely train and respectively lightly spar or whatever, but if your going to hit me, then ****!
I need to take my glasses off and take out my retainer because I'm not ****ing around when it comes to someone really trying to hit and hurt me. lol!
lol!
Whatever!
Sorry about the weird tanget. didn't mean to go there. I just don't want to go to another damn school and find out I'm fighting someone I don't even know because of their damn teachers! What a crock of ****!
If MA folks can't be civil.?~!
I don't want to 'play" anymore.
I only fight when I HAVE to. not for sport or money. and **** MMA! They just sold out the best MA for profit. Their bastards,
and deserve to.....
!!!!
I think I'll go see my "friend" that keeps coming up to my work and "talking" to me about coming to his school. either he wants to lure me there to have me be beat 2+to one or, maybe he's a good dude.
Hummmm.... I wonder wich? Guess Ill just have to have the balls to see. lol
p.s. I'm NOT bringing my daughter to the schools "day care". lol!
Me and baby girl go to Sifu's class once a week, and she's apart of class. She's a good girl and stays out of the way when folks get roudy, and sits with me to watch Sifu.
Bty mook jong man, this guy is really, really good! Totally different linage though. but, now their doing the form like SLT form like your lineage. neat.
love all ya'll!
Nikki
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