Why break grips?

[Oily Dragon]

Whenever I focus on breaking grips, assuming I even can break the grip, I feel like I spend more time and effort breaking the grip than my opponent does re-establishing it. For example, I break my opponent's grip on my lapel. He then grabs my lapel again. I've wasted energy for something he easily got back. And if we keep going, I've burned myself out and they still end up with the grip they wanted.

You can spend a lot of time just breaking grips over and over and you'll definitely notice it takes a lot of work sometimes.

Often though, if it's taking a lot of "work" (as in energy you are expending), there's a good chance you're not using technique but trying to pull free, which if gis are involved is the whole point....if I get a solid grip on your gi lapel, your head and neck are now mine to move and you won't have the leverage you want. True "grip breaks" should be fast and decisive, and usually involve body weight rather than "pulling away".

A rule of thumb with grips then, is "don't let them get one". Because as soon as you have to break a grip, you're on the defensive unless you can use their grip. SO I agree with some of the others, that sometimes breaking the grip is warranted (if you can do it quickly), other times it might be better to utilize that person's tight grip on you, especially in an art where someone is trying to wrap you up in your own heavy gi.

Sacrifice throws are a good example, if someone has the Darth Vader death grip on you, they can become easier to throw.

A side note, grip fighting training is really hard on the hands. I recommend liniments/coolants/dit da jow for any training where your fingers get really sore. Many Judo and BJJ people learn this too late, and develop problems picking up pencils.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can spend a lot of time just breaking grips over and over and you'll definitely notice it takes a lot of work sometimes.

Agree with you 100% there. It makes no sense to block your opponent's punch one after another without trying to knock him out.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Agree with you 100% there. It makes no sense to block your opponent's punch one after another without trying to knock him out.

In a Judo or BJJ context, breaking grips typically means getting someone's hands off your (heavy reinforced cotton) gi label. So a grip that is secured is like trying to pull a hand free off bedsheets. Very not easy. That grip is gonna be tight, which is why body weight will probably break it, where just pulling away/off is going to waste your gas.

Shuai jiao da lian, somewhat similar but the material is lighter and thinner, so a little easier to break imho over a heavy judogi. But again, striking a grip or twisting (especially with ah throw) it is going to usually work better than trying to pull it off you.

And yeah, I know this from my "Street BJJ" instructor dude who would laugh at some of my grip break attempts that weren't outright striking my opponents wrists. He's say something like "you're gonna be there a while"...until I realize to reverse my twist and off pops the other person's grip. You have to make it hard to hold on.

Part of the gripfighting game is psychological, like playing "Red Hands" that hand slapping game kids still do. If someone gets grippy, you smash those hands (unless it would get you DQ'd). If their hands are smarting because they keep getting punished, you've half won.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shuai jiao da lian, somewhat similar but the material is lighter and thinner, so a little easier to break imho over a heavy judogi.

It's easier to break a grip on a heavy material. It's difficult to break grip on a soft material (because your opponent's fingers can dig deeply into your soft material). For example, the Mongolian wrestling leather jacket is hard to grab but easy to break.

 

[drop bear]

This may be why I'm thinking that the punches aren't landing with force that they appear to be hitting with. The mask is absorbing that force which would have otherwise easily dazed them. But then again. I took a second look and noticed that most of the punching power being shown is just arm power.

It reminds me of trying to find a balance between maximum punching power and maximum grappling positioning. Go to far either direction and the risk of being in a position where it becomes difficult to do either striking or punching.

Not really. Bear in mind you also have a head and it probably doesn't need to get panel beaten. So in general always error on the side of less punching power for more face saftey.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It reminds me of trying to find a balance between maximum punching power and maximum grappling positioning. Go to far either direction and the risk of being in a position where it becomes difficult to do either striking or punching.

It's difficult to continue your punching when a clinch like this happens.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Whenever I focus on breaking grips, assuming I even can break the grip, I feel like I spend more time and effort breaking the grip than my opponent does re-establishing it. For example, I break my opponent's grip on my lapel. He then grabs my lapel again. I've wasted energy for something he easily got back. And if we keep going, I've burned myself out and they still end up with the grip they wanted.

@Tony Dismukes I know you made some excellent videos in the past, this may be a good topic for another video. I hope you don't consider me out-of-line for requesting it.

I think it's useful to explore grip releases for a couple of reasons.

1. So you know what you just pointed out in this post: sometimes it's just not worth bothering to release it.
2. So you can recognize when the #1 doesn't apply. Sometimes a grip can be broken easily, or is worth the effort. You can't know when that is without practicing them.

And, of course, sometimes it's just worth having that option in your bag. Personally, I normally prefer what I call "soft releases". Those are either really easy (they haven't gotten good structure behind their grip or something), or they are not really releases, just interrupt the structure of the grip so it's ineffective (think rolling a gripped hand under their arm, as some Hapkido techniques do). I rather like them being attached to me by a hand (so long as that hand doesn't give them control of me), because I know that one's not trying to punch or stab me, and probably won't be effective for blocking my punches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I need to get back to making videos, so I'll make an effort to get something recorded for you. I only teach one class next week before I go on vacation, so if I'll probably aim for after Thanksgiving.

In the meantime, here's an important concept. Don't just break the grip and let go. In the moment when you break their grip, you generally will have hold of their hand, wrist, and/or sleeve. Use that to immediately establish your own control, redirecting their attempts to grab you again.

I'll add that the act of breaking the grip will often compromise their structure in some way, so you have their hand/arm and some control of them already.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe he's asking in the context of sport grappling, where punching someone in the face when they grab you is generally frowned upon.

Frowny people are such spoil-sports.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'll add from the perspective of someone who sucks at the grip fighting portion. When my opponent is breaking my grip, I have to focus a lot on maintaining it. That's energy/focus I could be spending elsewhere. And if they break it and I try to regain my grip, that's also effort and energy I'm spending on getting my foundation/grip set up, rather than attacking or defending their attacks.
It only works that way if the opponent is better at grip fighting then me. But when they're the better one, it gives them a bit of an advantage (my solution is to not focus on holding grips and only go for grips for a second as I lead into something else, but my experience is that's not the norm).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When my opponent is breaking my grip, I have to focus a lot on maintaining it.

This is why when A breaks B's grip, A is one step ahead of B.

You try to achieve the following:

- You have 2 grips when your opponent only has 1 grip.
- You have 1 grip when your opponent has no grip.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is why when A breaks B's grip, A is one step ahead of B.

You try to achieve the following:

- You have 2 grips when your opponent only has 1 grip.
- You have 1 grip when your opponent has no grip.

Exactly. Which is why I spend as little time as possible in grip fighting. If I have no grip, and you have no grip, we are even. If I have grip for half a second, and you have no grip for that half second, I am ahead. Better than if we both have grip, you remove mine, and I then have one less grip than you.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Another thing to pour out about grips is that grip fighting is totally different between gi/jacket sports and others.

A lot of positional holds in judo/BJJ involve gripping yourself, whether in a gi or not. Gripping your own pant leg, etc.

And done correctly, some of those grips are just not going to break before the submission is complete. Ankle locks and collar chokes are two examples of things that once grips are set on you, you are probably tapping.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Exactly. Which is why I spend as little time as possible in grip fighting. If I have no grip, and you have no grip, we are even. If I have grip for half a second, and you have no grip for that half second, I am ahead. Better than if we both have grip, you remove mine, and I then have one less grip than you.

This is why the best strategy is the moment that you get a grip you attack before your opponent gets a grip on you. The window is very small. You have to act fast. This is called "fast hands wrestling" which is different from both you and your opponent have grips and dance together.

 

[dunc]

Generally speaking if your opponent gets grips on you then they can throw you, pass your guard, break your posture, attack a choke etc etc
So stripping grips or ideally preventing grips is a good habit. The best timing is to prevent the grip at the last minute and establish your own grip on their arm in the process. This doesn’t take much effort
Probably if you’re coach is advising you to do this then it would make sense to work on this skill - at a basic level you can defend yourself pretty well against more skilled opponents by simply focusing on this

There are other options like establishing your own grips that nullify their advantage and/or give you a superior option to attack

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The best strategy in grip fight can be:

- You grab your opponent's wrist.
- Your opponent tries to break it.
- You move in and control his elbow.
- You then move in and control his shoulder.

wrist gate -> elbow gate -> shoulder gate

The wrist control is the 1st step of the grip fight.

This is the correct wrist control.

This is the wrong wrist control.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The best strategy in grip fight can be:

- You grab your opponent's wrist.
- Your opponent tries to break it.
- You move in and control his elbow.
- You then move in and control his shoulder.

wrist gate -> elbow gate -> shoulder gate

The wrist control is the 1st step of the grip fight.

This is the correct wrist control.

View attachment 30322

This is the wrong wrist control.

View attachment 30323

As usual, I disagree with your characterization of things as being 100%/0%. There are times when either or both of those grips can be useful, and times when either or both of them can be a bad idea.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As usual, I disagree with your characterization of things as being 100%/0%. There are times when either or both of those grips can be useful, and times when either or both of them can be a bad idea.

The purpose of the grip fight is to be able to move your hands to the right place so you can take your opponent down ASAP. There is no other good reason for grip fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The purpose of the grip fight is to be able to move your hands to the right place so you can take your opponent down ASAP. There is no other good reason for grip fight.

There you go again. There are absolutely other reasons.

I may want to control an arm (weapon, prevent punching, etc.).
I may want to work to a better position, and that arm is in my way.
I may want to move an arm so it can't block my punch.
I may want to adjust their structure to set up a takedown (rather than the grip allowing me to immediately take them down.

But even ignoring all that, what in the world does your statement even say about why one of those grips is always wrong, while the other is always right? Even if my focus is to put my hand in the right place to take them down ASAP, why do you think one of those grips can't be used for that?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what in the world does your statement even say about why one of those grips is always wrong, while the other is always right?

Can you tell why I call one wrist control is correct and the other wrist control is wrong?