Why are you so biased?

[WC_lun]

I was raised in a fairly conservative upper poor to lower middle class family. There were some years I was in school that the government paid for breakfast and school lunches. I started work when I was 14. I paid for my food, clothes, and a car to keep working. I couldn't afford college until I was 21, but then I did well even while working. At 22 I had a catastrophic illness. I worked 4 days a week at a crummy job and had dialysis treatments the other 3 days a week. I did this for 6 years. In that six years there were days were I had to decide between paying bills or eating. Too many times I chose to pay bills and it took a greater toll on my health. This is were many of my views on things such as politics and health care some from.

I have no problems with people who view the world differently than I do. I know that unless they have gone through the things i have gone through, people will not see the world from the same perspective as I do. I think for a society it is a good thing to have all different perspectives. I only get irritated when people have no compassion for others or they lie to support thier own beliefs ...or denigrate others beliefs.

 

[Blade96]

i appreciate vets (the animal doctors and the soldiers) because I have had pets and I did a major in history at university so i grew to appreciate all they do for us and for our furry friends. A vet saved my cats life when he was almost 9 when both his kidneys shut down. He lived to be 15. And vets (the soldiers) saved us people over the centuries from various bad things.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, if your in-laws insist you are going to go on the rampage with your shot gun do they realise then how much they annoy you?

My in-laws don't annoy me; I actually love them very much. They were just here, as you know, due to a serious family matter. The funny thing is, they forgot all about the gun thing when they found out I was once a skyclad pagan, skipping merrily through the woods. That blew their minds to such an extent that they forgot all about the guns, tattoos, military background, and conservative mindset. I'm full of contradictions, makes me laugh when others jaws' drop. 'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have no problems with people who view the world differently than I do. I know that unless they have gone through the things i have gone through, people will not see the world from the same perspective as I do.

What's interesting to me is that sometimes people have the same or very similar backgrounds, and it shapes them in very different ways, and you have to wonder why one person is broken by an event, another is made stronger by it; why one sees themselves as a life-long victim and other other always assumes they will survive and thrive? And not just the extremes of good and bad, but everything in between. To hear one of my sisters tell it, we had a miserable childhood and life was very unfair to us. I was there; it didn't seem that way to me. And I don't recall her being miserable at the time. That's something I've never understood.

 

[Empty Hands]

What's interesting to me is that sometimes people have the same or very similar backgrounds, and it shapes them in very different ways, and you have to wonder why one person is broken by an event, another is made stronger by it; why one sees themselves as a life-long victim and other other always assumes they will survive and thrive?

Genetics and inborn (or at least involuntary) temperament matter a lot more than most people are probably comfortable with. We like to believe that we are in control, of our feelings and beliefs most of all, and yet to a large extent we are not.

Separated identical twin studies show this quite remarkably. Identical twins that were separated at birth, with no knowledge of each other and with different environments, can turn out remarkably similarly. They tend to marry similar spouses in terms of looks and temperament, sometimes even with the same name. They tend to have the same outlook and political beliefs. They even tend to dress the same.

Our genes shape our thoughts and beliefs to a large extent.

 

[elder999]

First, some thread drift...

Separated identical twin studies show this quite remarkably. Identical twins that were separated at birth, with no knowledge of each other and with different environments, can turn out remarkably similarly. They tend to marry similar spouses in terms of looks and temperament, sometimes even with the same name. They tend to have the same outlook and political beliefs. They even tend to dress the same.

Our genes shape our thoughts and beliefs to a large extent.

Back in the 80's...as in waay back in the beginning of them, I returned to college on Long Island. There was a story on the news about a guy who had transferred to Hofstra, and people kept calling him by another name-thinking he was this other guy, then getting mad at him when he insisted that he wasn't. Until one of them bothered to ask the guy if he was adopted, found out he was, and promptly said,"I think you have a twin."

So there they were on the news, and in the papers,these two identical twins, raised miles apart, who liked the same music, food, brand of cigarettes, booze, and had the same major, in restaurant management-chunky guys with curly hair, singing some James Taylor song pretty well, about as happy as I've ever seen anyone.

Next day, they were back on the news, and in the papers. Turns out, the twins had a twin-that is to say, they were triplets-who liked the same music, food, brand of cigarettes, booze, and had the same major, in restaurant management.-chunky guys with curly hair, singing some James Taylor song pretty well, about as happy as I've ever seen anyone.


Don't believe me? Here ya go.

And I think you can still eat at their restaurant, Triplet's Roumanian Steakhouse,on Grand St. in Manhattan-my old neighborhood.....

Of course, they grew up mere miles apart, and that could account for the taste in music, food, cigarettes and booze. Especially the cigarettes, I guess, but the same major?

 

[Empty Hands]

First, some thread drift...

Fascinating, and a good illustration of what I was talking about.

What's also interesting to me is that the heritability (the fraction due to genetics) of some traits changes with time. For instance, the heritability of IQ is higher in adults than in the young - environment matters more for the young, which makes sense considering that is a critical development time for the brain. The interactions are complex, but what is for certain is that we are not the tabula rasa - a philosophical idea that is a big part of how we look at thought and personality in the West.

 

[WC_lun]

I once read a book on Taoism that said the person we are now is made up of three equal parts; our enviroment, our genetics, and our inner self. I can't really argue with that line of thinking.

 

[girlbug2]

I had this huge, detailed post typed and ready when I lost internet connection:shock:.
What I said in a nutshell, is that I and my two sisters were raised in the same environment: WASP-y conservative middle class. Our dad came from a blue collar family and put himself through college with his own hard earned money, so we were taught to earn everything for ourselves, never live on credit, and save our money. Myself and one other sister followed suit with the parents' values, but the youngest went in the opposite direction to become quite liberal, debt-ridden and living on loans of one type or another.

Who knows, but that she inherited just the right combination of genes to deviate from the "norm" she was raised with. Environment is important I think but not the end-all.

 

[Empty Hands]

I once read a book on Taoism that said the person we are now is made up of three equal parts; our enviroment, our genetics, and our inner self. I can't really argue with that line of thinking.

I would argue that the inner self (the mind) is itself a product of genetics and environment.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite so, Bug. From my own life, I am the oldest of three. I have two sisters. The middle one, I think, is like me. Yet everyone else insists that it is my little sister and I that are very similar in our natures.

One thing is for certain, we all had the same 'dirt poor' start in life. The odd thing is that my middle sibling is a 'credit hog', forever living on debt whilst I and my little sister are frugal.

Neither of us will borrow money (if we don't have the cash then we don't buy it kind of attitude), tho' both of us will lend money rather foolishly (I've seen the back of thousands that way in 'loans' to friends ).

So how can it be that we all have the same genetic stock and all have the same environment and nurture yet have two distinct outcomes?

 

[Ken Morgan]

tho' both of us will lend money rather foolishly (I've seen the back of thousands that way in 'loans' to friends )

Sorry Mark, what part of England did you say you live in again.....? :angel:

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I would argue that the inner self (the mind) is itself a product of genetics and environment.

And that, I believe, is why you think as you do regarding politics. This is not a dig, mind you, but an example of the fundamental difference in our viewpoints that so shape many of our disagreements.

The two things that you mention are beyond the control of the individual. Therefore, the person, through no fault of their own, essentially becomes a victim of circumstance. The responsibily is then placed on other people, and not on the individual themselves. They become a perpetual victim. Therefore, those of us who were genetically and environmentally "lucky" have a moral responsibility to do what we can to help those people out, even if we need to be forced to do so.

What if find further interesting is that, often, people who think as you do make moral judgements about others with whom they disagree. How could you, it's not their fault. It is the fault of the environment and genetics. They are to be pitied, not scorned.

To be sure, I do think that these things do play a role. I just think that the extent to which they play are significantly less then you do.

 

[Steve]

And that, I believe, is why you think as you do regarding politics. This is not a dig, mind you, but an example of the fundamental difference in our viewpoints that so shape many of our disagreements.

The two things that you mention are beyond the control of the individual. Therefore, the person, through no fault of their own, essentially becomes a victim of circumstance. The responsibily is then placed on other people, and not on the individual themselves. They become a perpetual victim. Therefore, those of us who were genetically and environmentally "lucky" have a moral responsibility to do what we can to help those people out, even if we need to be forced to do so.

What if find further interesting is that, often, people who think as you do make moral judgements about others with whom they disagree. How could you, it's not their fault. It is the fault of the environment and genetics. They are to be pitied, not scorned.

To be sure, I do think that these things do play a role. I just think that the extent to which they play are significantly less then you do.

This is a very interesting post. I've never thought about nature vs nurture quite like this. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's very interesting. I think I'm kind of in the middle on this one. What I mean is, having had three kids, all completely different, I believe that there are inherent differences between one person and the next... temperament, inner self.. whatever you might call it. And this will shape how a person reacts to things that happen in their lives. But morals are taught. Morality is learned. I believe that absolutely. We are taught what is right and what is wrong. How we react to it is "inner self."

What we are born with are traits. Like stubbornness, competitiveness, intelligence or sensitivity. How we react to things that happen will shape us.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

This is a very interesting post. I've never thought about nature vs nurture quite like this. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's very interesting. I think I'm kind of in the middle on this one. What I mean is, having had three kids, all completely different, I believe that there are inherent differences between one person and the next... temperament, inner self.. whatever you might call it. And this will shape how a person reacts to things that happen in their lives. But morals are taught. Morality is learned. I believe that absolutely. We are taught what is right and what is wrong. How we react to it is "inner self."

What we are born with are traits. Like stubbornness, competitiveness, intelligence or sensitivity. How we react to things that happen will shape us.

I'm in the middle as well. Like I said, I do think that they play a part. One key trait though is that people can learn and improve their lot. In the past, I can see how the opportunities would be limited. But in today's age, after a certain point, there is just very little that amounts to a legitimate excuse, in my mind.

But let's take the argument one step further. Morality is taught. If someone is given a messed up moral compass, then it is not their fault, is it. It is their environment that taught them how to behave this way. This would have nothing to do with a person's "inner self".

I, for one, see the "inner self" as being more then physical. That's my bias. I don't believe that humans are ultimately limited by our physical bodies and all it mechanisms. The inner self that I refer to would often be of a spiritual sort. A soul if you will.

 

[Cryozombie]

Me? For a long time I didn't care and had no real opinions one way or the other. Politics and taxes and welfare and what have you made no difference to me.

When I was 13 I started working, a 5 day a week paper route AND caddying on the weekends. I wanted stuff. My parents were lower middle class enough that tho they tried to spoil me, I had to do for myself if I wanted more than 1 new Atari cartridge a year... so I learned early the value of having a work ethic. I think this is part of why I don't necessarily believe in handouts. After I grew up and was on my own, and when I was having a tough time making ends meet, I was working three jobs, sleeping maybe 2 - 3 hours a day. Bills to pay. I tried to get unemployment once... was turned down because my former employer lied... and I said never again. I found there was always money to be made, if I didn't do what I was "trained to do" and instead did what was available. It made living hard, but I've gotten by thus far. Sure, I worked the door of a ****** bar, and mowed lawns with a bunch of day laborers, or hung TVs and strung cable in lazy rich *******s homes. Whatever.

There was a point tho, I started seeing some really disturbing (to my mind) ****... one of my three jobs at that time was working 3rd shift in a hole-in-the-wall gas station near a large section 8 housing project. I would see women come in driving cars nicer than anything I could afford and load up on crap they paid for with their food stamps, their kids playing on a pokemon gold game boy color... and I was just like WTF? Hell, I see various issues like this all the time, just the other day I saw news footage of a woman crying about how she was going to lose her heating subsidy and she didnt know how she could pay to heat her house without the handout... something I could feel sorry for, IF SHE WASN'T STANDING IN FRONT OF A GODDAM 50" PLASMA TV AND HAD AN XBOX360 NEXT TO IT... ****! If she sold them, she could pay her heating for 1/2 the year without that goddamn subsidy. Suck it up! I sold my prized possession, a fairly expensive one of a kind hand made Katana so I could pay my bills. No sympathy from me on that one... I was probably in my mid to late 20's tho before i really started to think about these things.

My folks both got sick (Lung Cancer and Pancreatic cancer) close to the same time... so I moved out of my apartment bought a house 2 streets down from their place to help take care of my mom who had to quit working. Their neighborhood was primarily Hispanic, and full of Hispanic Street gangs and the subsequent drug and gang crime. There was no sense of community, if somthing happened no one wanted to talk to the police because most of the neighbors were illegal and afraid to talk to them... I started seeing this as a real problem... a few years later a friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver, who happened to be an illegal alien driving with no licence and no insurance. When he got out on bail, he vanished, my guess is back to Mexico and the family was left holding the bag... couldn't even sue the ****. Same thing happened a year or two ago to a friend of mine on his motorcycle. People argue that "They are only coming here to better themselves" which may be true, but it feels to me like they are damaging the fabric of society by failing to integrate. The neighborhoods go downhill because they are afraid to work with the police to control the crime, they live 5 or 6 families to a house, and as a result I keep seeing new code put into law to try and curb that type of thing that winds up impacting me... (most recently the City Code about Driveways and parking) etc... Most of that experience from moving into that neigborhood is what has soured me on the illegal immigration issue, and why I think we need immigration reform so badly.

That's the two big ones for me: I work for my money... I shouldn't have to give it to someone who can't or wont, and Ive seen wayyyy too much abuse of the system to care as much as I should for the people who might really need it. And because of the lack of "society" and community ties I have seen because of the large population of Illegal Aliens in my area, (or have perceived, take your pick) I really believe we need to both Crack down on Illegals, and make it much easier for the immigrants who want to be here to do so legally.

The only other thing is the second Amendment, but that goes to both Constitutional Rights, and (IMHO) common sense.

 

[Empty Hands]

To be sure, I do think that these things do play a role. I just think that the extent to which they play are significantly less then you do.

Where's your data then? There is plenty out there on the heritability of various traits, and plenty of proof that shows that the "inner mind" is not at all independent of biology and outside influences.

That is why a brain injury can change someone's personality.

It's easy to "think differently", but I would like to see some data.

As to your extended point, I do not disclaim all responsibility for one's actions. Explanation and understanding is not exculpation. Our daily experiences are indistinguishable from "free will", no matter the influences, thus it makes sense to treat people as autonomous and responsible. To some greater or smaller degree they are.

To some degree they are not however, to which the proof is ironclad - and often ignored.

ETA: I called myself a conservative and voted for Republicans until 2005. Don't be too quick to tie "my beliefs" into a scientific view of the world. My scientific view of the world never changed, but my beliefs did.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sorry Mark, what part of England did you say you live in again.....? :angel:

Erm ... well ... I didn't ... {scurries to profile to delete information :lol:}.

 

[Sukerkin]

That is why a brain injury can change someone's personality.

Very true - it happened to me most dramatically. It took my old friends years to adjust to the 'new' argumentative and emotional 'me'. The Star Trek analogy I always use is that I went from being a Vulcan to being a Romulan.

EDIT: For those that wonder what I'm on about, I had a near-fatal bike accident a couple of decades ago and suffered significant brain trauma (thankfully the impacts were cushioned somewhat by my helmet or I wouldn't be here).

 

[Empty Hands]

Very true - it happened to me most dramatically. It took my old friends years to adjust to the 'new' argumentative and emotional 'me'. The Star Trek analogy I always use is that I went from being a Vulcan to being a Romulan.

Glad you made it, belated by decades. Dramatic as the change was though, I'm guessing you still felt like the same old "you." In the case of Phineas Gage the railroad worker, his brain injury turned him from a quiet, prudent gentle man to an angry man who liked to fight and squander his money gambling. Our personalities and thoughts come from our brain. Our brain is a biological structure that is the product of the interaction of genes and environment.

This is not about ideology or belief. This is what the evidence shows.