Why are escrima and wing chun often paired together?

[geezer]

...the two methods are completely different. escrima is an "outside/in" method while wing chun is an "inside/out"...

Jin, could you explin what you mean by this a bit more. I'm not sure I follow you.

 

[chinaboxer]

Jin, could you explin what you mean by this a bit more. I'm not sure I follow you.

sure bro, it's a generalization, but for the most part, kali or escrima (even they have their own politics!) is like going to hug your grandma (not literally!) but the arm motion to do the action comes from the outside then in or if you put your arm around your girlfriend's shoulders, the motion also comes from the outside then in, this happens usually when your elbow position is away from your center. wrestlers also use the same type of arm motion to perform many takedowns. tennis players and baseball players swinging the bat also do the same type of "outside to inside" motion, which means that their elbows are going to be away from their center. also to gain power for the movement, usually requires the feet, hips and shoulders to also "sway" in conjunction with the movement.

as chunners, we know that this is completely opposite of the "core concepts", because our motion comes from the center elbow position and can move towards the outside gates, this would be inside to outside.

like i said, this is a very rough generalization, and it's not to say that kali/escrima doesn't have centerline attacks that move from the inside/out, because they do. and that's not to say that wing chun doesn't have outside/in attacks because they also do, but IMO they are the exceptions to the rule and not the bulk of the work.

but any _ing _un school teaching the mantra "keep your elbows into your center!" to their students, then also teaches kali/escrima and allows their elbows to swing out then in..out then in..over and over again, is just going to confuse the student IMO, it's just common sense, or am i missing something?

hope that clears that up a bit for ya. take care and peace!

Jin

 

[dungeonworks]

sure bro, it's a generalization, but for the most part, kali or escrima (even they have their own politics!) is like going to hug your grandma (not literally!) but the arm motion to do the action comes from the outside then in or if you put your arm around your girlfriend's shoulders, the motion also comes from the outside then in, this happens usually when your elbow position is away from your center. wrestlers also use the same type of arm motion to perform many takedowns. tennis players and baseball players swinging the bat also do the same type of "outside to inside" motion, which means that their elbows are going to be away from their center. also to gain power for the movement, usually requires the feet, hips and shoulders to also "sway" in conjunction with the movement.

as chunners, we know that this is completely opposite of the "core concepts", because our motion comes from the center elbow position and can move towards the outside gates, this would be inside to outside.

like i said, this is a very rough generalization, and it's not to say that kali/escrima doesn't have centerline attacks that move from the inside/out, because they do. and that's not to say that wing chun doesn't have outside/in attacks because they also do, but IMO they are the exceptions to the rule and not the bulk of the work.

but any _ing _un school teaching the mantra "keep your elbows into your center!" to their students, then also teaches kali/escrima and allows their elbows to swing out then in..out then in..over and over again, is just going to confuse the student IMO, it's just common sense, or am i missing something?

hope that clears that up a bit for ya. take care and peace!

Jin

Are you reffering to split entries Jin? That is what I am picturing, from my limited Inosanto Kali basics.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important. WC and Kali still work well together. I think there are just some basic things which allows them to blend. Some people say doing both messes up one or the others structures or execution of techniques, or causes confusion. I have to disagree. Give yourself (mind and body) more credit than that. We are capable of doing multiple tasks and do them well with practice.

We as human beings are capable of learning multiple things and doing them all well, differentiating between them the differences and performing them together when needed. As long as you have a strong core in one martial arts system, and very good at it, I think you can train another system and that other system doesn't affect your core system. Or vice versa. An example, when you were in school, some atheletes played several different sports, and were very good at all of them. Starting the season with football, then into basketball, followed by tennis, and softball. There were always several atheletes who did all of them and were successful at every one of them. With years of playing all the sports, they became very proficient at whatever sport they ventured into.

I also have a brother who was very good at playing basketball, playing hours and hours during the winter. But during the summer, he played tennis, spending hours and hours on the courts. He became very good at playing both. Now mind you, he didn't play them at the same time, but he could walk off a tennis court and pick up a basketball and play a game or two of it without any problems, being as proficient as always. I don't think martial arts are any different. I think you can do at least two different arts (and maybe more) and do them very well, if you train them correctly with perfect practicing of their principle theories, concepts, and techniques (if any). And with WC and Kali having some similarities, that is why they are often paired together.

Back in 1988, my Sifu and a Sihing wrote an article which was in Inside Kung Fu about the similarities of WC and Kali. It's pretty basic, but I think everyone gets the point. Some of the reasons given in the article are why, I think, they get paired together. And I guess Sifu thought so too. See the link:

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103

 

[bribrius]

Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important. WC and Kali still work well together. I think there are just some basic things which allows them to blend. Some people say doing both messes up one or the others structures or execution of techniques, or causes confusion. I have to disagree. Give yourself (mind and body) more credit than that. We are capable of doing multiple tasks and do them well with practice.

We as human beings are capable of learning multiple things and doing them all well, differentiating between them the differences and performing them together when needed. As long as you have a strong core in one martial arts system, and very good at it, I think you can train another system and that other system doesn't affect your core system. Or vice versa. An example, when you were in school, some atheletes played several different sports, and were very good at all of them. Starting the season with football, then into basketball, followed by tennis, and softball. There were always several atheletes who did all of them and were successful at every one of them. With years of playing all the sports, they became very proficient at whatever sport they ventured into.

I also have a brother who was very good at playing basketball, playing hours and hours during the winter. But during the summer, he played tennis, spending hours and hours on the courts. He became very good at playing both. Now mind you, he didn't play them at the same time, but he could walk off a tennis court and pick up a basketball and play a game or two of it without any problems, being as proficient as always. I don't think martial arts are any different. I think you can do at least two different arts (and maybe more) and do them very well, if you train them correctly with perfect practicing of their principle theories, concepts, and techniques (if any). And with WC and Kali having some similarities, that is why they are often paired together.

Back in 1988, my Sifu and a Sihing wrote an article which was in Inside Kung Fu about the similarities of WC and Kali. It's pretty basic, but I think everyone gets the point. Some of the reasons given in the article are why, I think, they get paired together. And I guess Sifu thought so too. See the link:

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103

Good article. i didn't know wing chun was so complex. I just gained respect for it. The "gates" still confuse me. I am trying to understand that better, thanks.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Interesting topic!

I understand what jin is saying. If you are training a fixed art and you drill moves in, you will develop certain habits. These may hinder you if you then go and train in other arts which teach you to do the exact opposite!!

It is like a track runner training for the 1600m instead of the 100m - you will develop different skills and routines, and it is almost impossible to be good at both

In the case of escrima, there are a few moves that combine well with the wing chun, but it does ultimately depend on how you have been taught wing chun

I found this when I did karate. Certain moves blended very well with the wing chun, but other techniques I could never use that effectively because it would ultimately conflict with my wing chun. Most of this was to do with energies rather than structure (ie punching in karate is extremely different to wing chun)

My two cents.

 

[chinaboxer]

Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important...

A _ing _un instructor or practitioner would never ever say that...ever.

what i'm starting to notice is the confusion of the word "wing chun" or whatever you want to call it. this is not aimed at anyone in particular, so please don't get offended, it's just an observation i've made and is only my opinion...

wing chun is NOT a style, it's completely "concept" based, you cannot go against the "concepts" because if you do, you are NOT doing wing chun, because you're not following the concepts, because that's all there is to the art.

if you mess with the concepts of wing chun, you mess with the whole thing. many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts.

so where do you learn these concepts? in the forms training, guided by a competent instructor, why do you think they call the first form "little idea form"? because that's where you learn ALL the little ideas..the concepts. the forms training is EVERYTHING in wing chun. which is why it amazes me that it's always the first thing to go when people start mixing other conflicting martial arts in with wing chun.

can you tell this subject really erks me? =P

 

[mook jong man]

When the **** hits the fan whatever you have trained the most and for the longest will always come to the fore.

 

[Poor Uke]

if you mess with the concepts of wing chun, you mess with the whole thing. many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts.

.............which is why it amazes me that it's always the first thing to go when people start mixing other conflicting martial arts in with wing chun.

My Arnis teacher is also a qualified Wing Chun instructor. I myself have dedicated many years soley to Wing Chun and attained a junior intructor cert in the organisation I was involved in.

I apprieciate the point your making, there are indeed alot of elements in the Arnis system I am learning that cannot readily be expressed as Wing Chun concepts.

But I dont see them as contradiction or for them to have the ability to confuse. I see them as extra options and reference points.

This idea that anyopne can only call themselves a Wing Chun practishoner if they study and only study 'pure' Wing Chun is kinda silly. Much of what I do in Arnis can be discribed by using Wing Chun analogies - does that make those elements Wing Chun?

can you tell this subject really erks me? =P

Me too =)

 

[zepedawingchun]

A _ing _un instructor or practitioner would never ever say that...ever.

Chinaboxer, you misunderstood me. What I was saying is Wing Chun uses elbows in, Kali elbows out, it doesn't matter. Maybe it didn't come out that way. As arts, they still work well together. Of course you have to follow the basic concepts of each of them to execute them correctly. I can jump from Wing Chun to Kali, and vice versa, one to the other without any problem. My opinion is they work well together because they are similar. I didn't say exactly the same, just similar in some concepts. And that makes them easy to use together which is the most likely reason they are paired together.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . .many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts

I don't mix Kali, or Thai, or boxing with Wing Chun. I actually show Kali and Wing Chun seperately. If I take something from Kali (or any of the others) to demonstrate, I tell my students this is from Kali or how Kali might do it. In many instances, the whole reason for cross-training is so you're not caught with your pants down when you encounter something from boxing, Thai, or Kali, etc.

 

[Poor Uke]

My apologies for not posting this ealier. Its a video of the late Balintawak Arins Master Teofilo Velez (I have posted this in the weapons vid section as well which reminded me of this thread)

Balintawak is sometimes called corto linear btw....enjoy

In my opinion WC and Balintawak have massive cross over and hopefully the video demonstrates the similarties.

 

[geezer]

In my opinion WC and Balintawak have massive cross over and hopefully the video demonstrates the similarties.

I've seen some Balinatawak demonstrated locally by Sam Buot and I had a mixed response regarding it's relation to the VT/WT I practice. There are definitely some similarities, but some obvious differences too. Some of the movements involved withdrawing or retracting force, and some seemed unecessarily complex. And I didn't see the explosive short power of a Rene Latosa (escrima) or Emin Boztepe(WT). Maybe I just didn't see enough. Bobby Taboada will be offering a seminar here this fall, and maybe I should go just to get another perspective.

On the other hand, the DTE and Latosa Escrima systems I've been involved in haven't conflicted with my VT since they share root concepts. DTE for example is all about forward energy and following your opponent's center. At first it seemed to use a lot more off-lining than my VT, but as I've learned more about both arts, they seem to harmonise in many ways.

Perhaps that's the explanation for what I see with DTE and what you see with Balintawak, Uke. As you get deeper beneath the surface you may find more and more in common between certain arts at the conceptual level... things that at first appear contradictory but really aren't.

 

[Hawke]

Maha Guro Buzz Smith instructs Maharlika Kuntaw (FMA).

Triangle Concept
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Blocking
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Gary Lam instructs a seminar at Burbank 2009
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[geezer]

Man, I always love watching good videos. Thanks. The second vid on Kuntau blocking did look WC-like, except it didn't emphasize simultaneous defense-attack. And that's a major difference. Enjoyed the Gary Lam one too ...some good stuff.

 

[Hawke]

I thought the vids may help others see some what of a correlation. The 2nd vid was one way to show how one hand helps the other. The 3rd video is Sifu Gary Lam demonstrating how the hands help each other.

Gary Lam is a great guy. He teaches out in Los Angeles (Monterey Park).

 

[Poor Uke]

The second vid on Kuntau blocking did look WC-like, except it didn't emphasize simultaneous defense-attack. And that's a major difference.

He was just breaking it down Geezer. Most blocks/deflections come with a control or an attack. Simulatneous block and attack of a weapon weilding arms is a basic premise in FMAs in general.

I think the difference in this case is the target of the attack. With WC the focus is the centre line where as in FMAs its the arms due to the primacy of the weapon.

 

[Yoshin9]

I'm relatively new to Wing Chun but I found the escrima blends well with my Japanese jujutsu, so I think when you have a certain level in two or more arts you find ways to blend them together and it becomes more about principles than specific techniques.

 

[unladylikedefnse]

I agree with @zepedawingchun. Paul Vunak and Harinder Singh Sabharwal integrate esrima with wing chun and also JKD.

Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar. Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training. Weapons use is similar too. The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.