Who is Welcome to Sparring

[Danny T]

#1. What is the intent?
To sparr or to fight to prove something. Sparring isn't about winning but about learning. Sparring is not about competition but about learning. Fighting is about winning. Fight competition is about winning. Sparring is about learning.

#2. What will be the ground rules and what happens if someone/anyone breaks one of those rules?

If some one came and asked about being able to "sparr" my first inclination is to find out about the persons agenda and why. I would request that they first attend a class session and see how they work with others. Are they open to learning from us and sharing their art or do they have something to prove?

After that I am concerned about everyone's safety and we will set down the rules of the sparring sessions. What will be allowed and how. Ie. which punches or kicks. Again if this happens "I" will be the final determining factor as to who, what and how.

If at any time I get the feeling someone, anyone is making this a fight to prove something then it is off and that person will be shown the door and I do not care if it were one of my students! Now if they want to fight we can and are willing to work with them to create an venue for that but it will not happen at that time. Someone comes in unannounced wanting to train and possible sparr we will work to be able to accomodate them. We are all about learning, training, and advancing in our abilities however, a fight will happen only under exacting circumstances.


At Progressive Martial Arts Training Center our mission is to instruct the principles of physical and mental defense enabling the practitioner to develop techniques for efficient and effective self-defense by maintaining an instructional, training, and testing environment that will enable each individual the opportunity to pursue and achieve the highest level of Martial skill they are capable of.

Sparring is a large part of the training and fighting can be also if it is wanted and warranted but will be done in a safe and controlled manner that advances the abilities of all involved.

If they are unwilling to accept that then they can and will be left standing outside looking in.

Danny

 

[Tez3]

Our MMA classes are for fight training, we have separate SD classes for those that want it. In the MMA classes we don't do spiritual, self defence, inner peace or anything like that..... we do training for fights. If someone walks into our class looking for a fight they mean they want to be matched on one of our promotions (did I mention we started Micheal Bisping off, he debuted on one of ours - proud boast lol) they don't walk in looking to fight anyone in the club, the MMA fighters I know would be appalled at the idea of going to someones club to fight. We don't even tend to call it sparring, we go for a 'roll' usually.They'll do stand up too though. I've been to a lot of clubs and Open Mats, I've never known one where anyone got out of hand, they've always been very friendly and fun. When you think that some of Britains best fighters are happy to roll with kids and 'old ladies' like me it will show you the attitude we have. Fighters are very aware of injuries and will be careful not to cause any by over-enthuisiastic sparring. We have professional fighters sparring with amateurs and there's never a problem.

 

[MBuzzy]

#1. What is the intent?
To sparr or to fight to prove something. Sparring isn't about winning but about learning. Sparring is not about competition but about learning. Fighting is about winning. Fight competition is about winning. Sparring is about learning.

This is the key here....what is the intent??

Why does sparring someone from another style automatically become all about competition? Fighting someone with a completely new style or approach will teach you something new much more quickly than sparring with the same group using the same style and approach you are used to.

Because let's be realistic here, martial arts is about fighting and it is about being able to beat your opponent, it is cometitive by nature. If someone from another school comes into your school and is only interested in sparring? What is generally their purpose and intent? I'm not saying that there are never people who show up just to learn and get experience with other styles and other people. But if someone shows up unannounced and they are highly ranked in another style and only interested in fighting, chances are, their purpose is to test themselves or the school's students that they're walking in to.

And more importantly, as a school owner, you have to be careful with this stuff. I'm thinking of this from an owner's perspective too. What if that person get seriously hurt? What if they seriously hurt one of your students? The instructor has NO IDEA what to expect out of this person. I mean, we always hear about schools with rough people in their own schools and the difficulties in controlling them. How about an unknown quantity? No way to know.

So to me, there are two important points to consider here.

1) As Danny stated, what is their intent? If it is to learn, why are they only coming for sparring class? If they really want to learn, they can come for regular classes as well.

2) The person who holds ALL of the liability will be responsible for whatever this unknown quantity does. Even if they have signed a hold harmless agreement, if they get hurt, the owner is still open to a lawsuit. Not to mention bad press, possible strained relations with another school owner and a myriad of other isssues for opening your doors.

Now with that said, if prior arrangements are made. If things are set up and the purpose and participants are known, it is a different story. Sparring other opponents and other styles is VERY important, but a simple phone call isnt' difficult...nor is an interschool arrangement....or heck, set a Saturday aside and offer open mat time, where all participants know what to expect.

To be honest we don't mind whether people call or not, it's just that if we aren't there we'd hate for people to have a wasted journey! To be honest traditional martial artists shun us, they wouldn't turn up even if we invited them (and we have done before just to have received a snooty put down). In the MMA world here as in the military world of which we are in both, unexpected visitors are always 'known' to us as being part of the 'family' even if we haven't met before! We always have friends and colleagues in common. I think military people would understand what I mean. Anyone putting their head round the door is welcome.We don't use anyone that comes in as mat fodder either, they are treated as friends.

That is true, when I was practicing on base, we looked at things much more differently, anyone that came in was military and there was an unspoken understanding that you have to take it relatively easy. We didn't get many walk ins, but in the base gym, things are different.

Plus, I have no experience, but I woudl assume that the culture and atmosphere of an MMA club is a bit different than a traditional martial arts school.

 

[Tez3]

This is the key here....what is the intent??



Because let's be realistic here, martial arts is about fighting and it is about being able to beat your opponent, it is cometitive by nature. If someone from another school comes into your school and is only interested in sparring? What is generally their purpose and intent? I'm not saying that there are never people who show up just to learn and get experience with other styles and other people. But if someone shows up unannounced and they are highly ranked in another style and only interested in fighting, chances are, their purpose is to test themselves or the school's students that they're walking in to.

And more importantly, as a school owner, you have to be careful with this stuff. I'm thinking of this from an owner's perspective too. What if that person get seriously hurt? What if they seriously hurt one of your students? The instructor has NO IDEA what to expect out of this person. I mean, we always hear about schools with rough people in their own schools and the difficulties in controlling them. How about an unknown quantity? No way to know.

So to me, there are two important points to consider here.

1) As Danny stated, what is their intent? If it is to learn, why are they only coming for sparring class? If they really want to learn, they can come for regular classes as well.

2) The person who holds ALL of the liability will be responsible for whatever this unknown quantity does. Even if they have signed a hold harmless agreement, if they get hurt, the owner is still open to a lawsuit. Not to mention bad press, possible strained relations with another school owner and a myriad of other isssues for opening your doors.

Now with that said, if prior arrangements are made. If things are set up and the purpose and participants are known, it is a different story. Sparring other opponents and other styles is VERY important, but a simple phone call isnt' difficult...nor is an interschool arrangement....or heck, set a Saturday aside and offer open mat time, where all participants know what to expect.



That is true, when I was practicing on base, we looked at things much more differently, anyone that came in was military and there was an unspoken understanding that you have to take it relatively easy. We didn't get many walk ins, but in the base gym, things are different.

Plus, I have no experience, but I woudl assume that the culture and atmosphere of an MMA club is a bit different than a traditional martial arts school.

It is very different, we have no ranking and no syllabus. It's what makes it attractive to service personnel, it's very difficult to progress in a TMA when you are constantly away, it gets disheartening.
We don't have planned lessons, it depends on who's fighting and what they need according to the tactics planned. There is a camaradie among fighters that is very similiar to that among service personnel ( well you can imagine what they're like when they are both fighters and servicemen lol) training together is very different from TMA training.

 

[Big Don]

The intent is threefold.
Sparring is a learning opportunity, so learning
Sparring is fun, so fun
Sparring a different set of people rather than the same people we spar every week, there is always other things to learn and to try sparring is as good a way as any to learn many of them.
Challenge? As someone stated, sparring isn't about competition, those that want competition and all that entails go to tournaments. The greatest victory is victory over one's self, sparring is just a way to learn and have fun doing so.

 

[searcher]

If that's all they said, then you and your cohorts are ****ing *******s. Even if they DO want to challenge you, there are ways to settle it without severe injury, which still makes you *******s. I hope you were just exaggerating.

My comments here were in the context of an group coming into my school from another school and stating that they want to spar. This to me seems like a challenge, but I may be wrong. Here is the deal, if you are wanting to spar with my students or with myself, you need to come workout first and sign your waivers(legal requirement). Then we will see if you will be sparring with our group or not.

And no, I am not exaggerating. I consider this no different then showing up at your front door and saying, "hey lets spar." There is a proper way of doing it and there is a way to not do it. I believe others have hit it on the head with the aspect of intent.

And concerning your comments, about doing it without hurting someone, depends on how they decide to spar. If I see them loading up on their techniques, then they will most likely get hurt. It is the nature of the beast.

Now, let the flaming and negative repping begin.

 

[Tez3]

I won't neg rep or flame, I'm just smiling because MMA gets such things as 'human cock fighting' chucked at it and we all train together even people who then fight each other in the ring/cage and here you all are getting quite hot under the collar about people sparring. We must seem like wusses because we don't challenge each other (well only when it's a big fight and then it's smack talk to get bums on seats lol). I have visions of Dojo wars a la Karate Kid and all the best chop socky films. :lol:

I'm really sorry but I can't help laughing and I don't mean to offend anyone but some of this stuff is so sanctimonious. I can walk into any MMA club/gym here unnannounced and be greeted with a big smile and a hug and asked if I want to have a roll. Afterwards we'll go out for a beer. It's like turning up at a friend's house, well I can do that too and say hey lets spar/roll and we'll go off and do it. I've had people pop round to my house before and we've gone up the club. There's no aggression, no intent to hurt just as Big Don said a desire to learn, improve skills and have a laugh.
By the way a waiver will not stop you being sued, it's worth nothing in law, ours and yours.

 

[Empty Hands]

This to me seems like a challenge, but I may be wrong.

So you'll break their arm just in case?

I consider this no different then showing up at your front door and saying, "hey lets spar."

If my front door had a big sign out front saying "John's Kenpo Karate" then the comparison would be more apt. As it is, some clubs such as Tez' do have an open door policy. Maybe someone would be used to that system and might assume the same of a club in the same style, let's say. In any case, you could, you know, ask, before you break something.

And concerning your comments, about doing it without hurting someone, depends on how they decide to spar.

Sore ribs, jammed fingers, or even a black eye is one thing. Broken limbs are something else altogether.

Besides, that isn't what you said. You didn't say you would match your force to theirs. You said broken bones would result.

Now, let the flaming and negative repping begin.

Hey, you're the one who said they would start breaking bones if someone from another club wanted to spar at your school. Don't be surprised if it provokes a negative reaction, that sort of thing is frowned upon by responsible martial artists. At least since the era of turf wars and challenge matches from the 60's ended.

 

[Empty Hands]

...I'm just smiling because MMA gets such things as 'human cock fighting' chucked at it and we all train together even people who then fight each other in the ring/cage and here you all are getting quite hot under the collar about people sparring.

I was thinking the same thing for MMA. As it is, Searcher's attitude is not universal. Our kenpo studio has much the same attitude as your gym.

 

[tshadowchaser]

There are those that I will let just walk in and take place in class or spar when ever they happen to show up. These people are friends or students of people I respect and know.
If some one unknown walks in they may take part in class and I will make my mind up sometime during class if we are going to spar that night.
If someone I do not know simply walks in of the street and wants to spar I want to know where they studied, how long, and with whom. If I get answers that I like I may allow them to spar But as others have said, I will set the rules and they will be obeyed.

Having had in the past people walk in and want to “FIGHT” I have developed a class that usually leaves them not wanting to even finish they class, say nothing of “fight” after doing all the exercises.

Each case of a stranger walking through the door is looked on as a separate incidence and each person is evaluated to gauge what their intentions are.

 

[Tez3]

So you'll break their arm just in case?



If my front door had a big sign out front saying "John's Kenpo Karate" then the comparison would be more apt. As it is, some clubs such as Tez' do have an open door policy. Maybe someone would be used to that system and might assume the same of a club in the same style, let's say. In any case, you could, you know, ask, before you break something.



Sore ribs, jammed fingers, or even a black eye is one thing. Broken limbs are something else altogether.

Besides, that isn't what you said. You didn't say you would match your force to theirs. You said broken bones would result.



Hey, you're the one who said they would start breaking bones if someone from another club wanted to spar at your school. Don't be surprised if it provokes a negative reaction, that sort of thing is frowned upon by responsible martial artists. At least since the era of turf wars and challenge matches from the 60's ended.

Of course Searcher is also assuming that his students and or he would actually beat these marauders!

I think one of the reasons most MMA clubs have an open door policy is because we respect each other, we know exactly how much damage can be done if sparring were to be as Searcher imagines. Very few fighters think that tapping in training is soft, in training you only go till there is light pressure on. In stand up we'll go 60% no more.

I've done a lot of TMA training too, I still instruct a TSD class and if someone wanted to turn and spar they'd still be welcome. I wouldn't assume they were coming to challenge anyone, I've never seen it before and I can't imagine I'll ever see it. And if I did? I imagine the roars of laughter would probably put them off!

 

[Empty Hands]

Of course Searcher is also assuming that his students and or he would actually beat these marauders!

Well there is that! Someone who is much better than you might feel ill disposed towards leaving you in one piece if you try to break their arm and fail.

 

[Tez3]

Well there is that! Someone who is much better than you might feel ill disposed towards leaving you in one piece if you try to break their arm and fail.

Yes, you'd have to be awfully sure of your abilities or awfully arrogant I'm afraid, much better to be welcoming in the first place! I believe it fits in much better with most TMAs philosophies too.

 

[searcher]

There are those that I will let just walk in and take place in class or spar when ever they happen to show up. These people are friends or students of people I respect and know.
If some one unknown walks in they may take part in class and I will make my mind up sometime during class if we are going to spar that night.
If someone I do not know simply walks in of the street and wants to spar I want to know where they studied, how long, and with whom. If I get answers that I like I may allow them to spar But as others have said, I will set the rules and they will be obeyed.

Having had in the past people walk in and want to “FIGHT” I have developed a class that usually leaves them not wanting to even finish they class, say nothing of “fight” after doing all the exercises.

Each case of a stranger walking through the door is looked on as a separate incidence and each person is evaluated to gauge what their intentions are.

Thank you for clarifying the point I am trying to make. Come workout with us then we will see if you will be allowed to spar. Don't come to the door and say you are wanting to spar. It will be different if I know you or if I know your instructor.

 

[Tez3]

I've never been in a TMA class where someone walked in and either wanted a fight or just to spar and anyone doolally enough to walk into an MMA class and ask for a fight is just asking to be laughed at. Why on earth would they want to fight in a club when they can do it on a show and be paid expenses if an amateur or a purse plus ticket deal if semi pro or pro?
I think clubs who have an open door policy are unlikely to have problems by the way, they are showing they are open to all and have no attitude. I tend to think it's the classes that think they are elitist and secretive that could goad people into challenging them. There would be no fun in just walking in and be accepted by everyone for the type of person who would challenge people to fight.
I can't imagine either that many people would walk straight into a class and say 'I want to spar' as baldly as that, martial artists would come and explain the why's and wherefores first. To automatically assume it's hostile and a challenge is a very defensive position to take and makes me wonder why.

 

[meth18au]

I think clubs who have an open door policy are unlikely to have problems by the way, they are showing they are open to all and have no attitude. I tend to think it's the classes that think they are elitist and secretive that could goad people into challenging them. There would be no fun in just walking in and be accepted by everyone for the type of person who would challenge people to fight.
I can't imagine either that many people would walk straight into a class and say 'I want to spar' as baldly as that, martial artists would come and explain the why's and wherefores first. To automatically assume it's hostile and a challenge is a very defensive position to take and makes me wonder why.

I've come to this debate late. I'm with Tezz on this one!!!


I have actually done this at gym not so long ago. I tried out another gym a little while back, just walked in with my mate. Spoke to the owner, he said jump into tonights session. So we did- I had all my gear in the car, and was training inside the club within 30 minutes. No hostilities from anyone, anywhere at any time!!!


My own club is very much like this- and so are many other Muay Thai clubs around where I live. Fighters from all clubs come at anytime to have a go with our fighters. I hence have also experienced this open door policy where I live. It's true to automatically assume it's hostile and a challenge is a very defensive position to take!!! It's not like the person is coming in and issuing a challenge of sorts. They just want to train, test their skills and improve them.

Give em a fair go I reckon!!!

 

[IcemanSK]

I used to train at a kickboxing gym in a rough neighborhood. Guys would come in & want to challenge our fighters. More than once, a much larger guy would want to fight one of our smaller guys. One guy they'd always choose was 5'6" 145 lbs. He didn't look like much & he was quiet & shy: therfore a push over.

In fact, he was a fighter with more than 60 wins (no losses in either boxing or kickbxing). More than once the "challenger" had to be woken up to the leave the building.

In a gym setting like that (or an MMA gym) it can be more easily handled that way. In a TMA school, "challegers" are not welcome.

A TMA school that I was affilated with had a good relationship with another school. The two schools got together for a friendly sparring day. One instructor said it was called a "Shi 'i." The instructors got together before the event & agreed it would be a friendly, fun day. They also agreed to compliment each other's students after each match. It was a great time & everyone learned something new that day.

 

[MBuzzy]

You know, this brings up another point to me...We're talking a lot about the MMA situation. Another area where traditional styles differ is that we are a single style.

It would be a different story in my opinion if someone else from my style and a visiting school wanted to come work out. In fact, I do it all the time. I go to other schools and sit in for a night....now, I don't come to do the door and say "I just want to fight, nothing else."

But when you're doing this within style, for traditional martial arts, it works out a little better. Whether people like it or not, there are a strict set of rules for most TMA's sparring. Much more strict than MMAs. Our fights generally don't go to the ground, we stay away from hitting certain dangerous areas, etc. Not that MMAs don't have rules, but there is a much wider variety of moves possible. With TMA, part of those rules are knowing what to expect.

I figure I won't get much agreement out of this one....but I still see a big difference between a same style visit and a competing different style school.

 

[Tez3]

I used to train at a kickboxing gym in a rough neighborhood. Guys would come in & want to challenge our fighters. More than once, a much larger guy would want to fight one of our smaller guys. One guy they'd always choose was 5'6" 145 lbs. He didn't look like much & he was quiet & shy: therfore a push over.

In fact, he was a fighter with more than 60 wins (no losses in either boxing or kickbxing). More than once the "challenger" had to be woken up to the leave the building.

In a gym setting like that (or an MMA gym) it can be more easily handled that way. In a TMA school, "challegers" are not welcome.

A TMA school that I was affilated with had a good relationship with another school. The two schools got together for a friendly sparring day. One instructor said it was called a "Shi 'i." The instructors got together before the event & agreed it would be a friendly, fun day. They also agreed to compliment each other's students after each match. It was a great time & everyone learned something new that day.

I've never come across anybody challenging anyone in a TMA school that I've been. I suppose it happens somewhere though. The thing is and I've noticed this before, how defensive everyone is when there's talk of someone wanting to spar with your club! The OP put up a nice thread inviting people to come and spar with them ( thank you for the invite btw and I'd love to if I ever get to your part of the world) and everyone gets their hackles up and we are discussing challenges and broken limbs, amazing!
I understand being cautious for insurance purposes but the testosterone level took a leap upwards in this thread lol eg Whoa, no one comes in my club without my say so, I'll beat them up etc etc.Gentlemen, in my neck of the woods that's called 'being up yourselves'.Why are you so bothered? Is it about 'defending' your territory ie your club/school? No one unless they are strictly vetted is allowed in? If someone came into the MMA class and wanted a fight we'd simple say no ta and get on with training. No worries as meth18au would say! If they came into my TSD class I'd say sure but wear a groin guard as the kids are prone to headbutting groins (they don't mean to it's just they're the right height), oh and you have to fight them all at once, (I teach kids only). We put the MMA fighters in with them once in a while and they do that, oooh it sharpens the fighters up really quickly lol! One fighter went down and was covered with kids trying to put arm bars, leg locks and even chokes on, very, very funny!
It's something to see a 6 foot 6 heavyweight, bald tattooed pro MMA fighter sparring with a six year old in such a way that the child comes off the mat beaming because he's 'beaten' his opponent up!
That's martial arts spirit!

 

[IcemanSK]

I've never come across anybody challenging anyone in a TMA school that I've been. I suppose it happens somewhere though. The thing is and I've noticed this before, how defensive everyone is when there's talk of someone wanting to spar with your club! The OP put up a nice thread inviting people to come and spar with them ( thank you for the invite btw and I'd love to if I ever get to your part of the world) and everyone gets their hackles up and we are discussing challenges and broken limbs, amazing!
I understand being cautious for insurance purposes but the testosterone level took a leap upwards in this thread lol eg Whoa, no one comes in my club without my say so, I'll beat them up etc etc.Gentlemen, in my neck of the woods that's called 'being up yourselves'.Why are you so bothered? Is it about 'defending' your territory ie your club/school? No one unless they are strictly vetted is allowed in? If someone came into the MMA class and wanted a fight we'd simple say no ta and get on with training. No worries as meth18au would say! If they came into my TSD class I'd say sure but wear a groin guard as the kids are prone to headbutting groins (they don't mean to it's just they're the right height), oh and you have to fight them all at once, (I teach kids only). We put the MMA fighters in with them once in a while and they do that, oooh it sharpens the fighters up really quickly lol! One fighter went down and was covered with kids trying to put arm bars, leg locks and even chokes on, very, very funny!
It's something to see a 6 foot 6 heavyweight, bald tattooed pro MMA fighter sparring with a six year old in such a way that the child comes off the mat beaming because he's 'beaten' his opponent up!
That's martial arts spirit!

I'd say it doesn't happen as often as it used to (in the 70's) but I'm sure it still happens.

As far as the head butts....Remind me to not stop by "unprotected!"