If I ever have a daughter, I will name her Kara Te. Then I will truly be the father of karate and this thread will finally have its answer.
Daniel
Who is the father of Karate
- Thread starter Manny
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Daniel
twendkata71
Black Belt
Thank you for the correction Timos,
I actually didn't mean to lump Kyan in with Motobu and Arakaki as being students of Itosu. And yes, Itosu was only a student of Matsumura for a short time before moving on to two other teachers.
I was actually told that Kyan had studied with Itosu when I was studying Matsubayashi Shorin ryu.
As far as Itosu being a student of matsumura for a short time, A short time on Okinawa can mean several years, or a decade or two, eh? Their concept of time is a little different. They have the highest rate of longevity in the world.
I appreciate the corrections. I sometimes get typing on the forums and my memory gets a little cloudy. That is why I am glad that there are many others in here that are knowledgable.
In the future, I will do more accurage research before posting information.
Another mistake I made in my post was stating the Arakaki Ankichi was a student of Itosu, when actually Arakaki studied with Chibanna,Kyan and Hanashiro Chomo.
I actually didn't mean to lump Kyan in with Motobu and Arakaki as being students of Itosu. And yes, Itosu was only a student of Matsumura for a short time before moving on to two other teachers.
I was actually told that Kyan had studied with Itosu when I was studying Matsubayashi Shorin ryu.
As far as Itosu being a student of matsumura for a short time, A short time on Okinawa can mean several years, or a decade or two, eh? Their concept of time is a little different. They have the highest rate of longevity in the world.
I appreciate the corrections. I sometimes get typing on the forums and my memory gets a little cloudy. That is why I am glad that there are many others in here that are knowledgable.
In the future, I will do more accurage research before posting information.
Another mistake I made in my post was stating the Arakaki Ankichi was a student of Itosu, when actually Arakaki studied with Chibanna,Kyan and Hanashiro Chomo.
twendkata71
Black Belt
Thanks for that correction. I was told by Shorin ryu members of my current organization that their version of Seisan was the Aragaki Seisan. One member was of Shobayashi Shorin ryu lineage. The other Chubu Shorin ryu. They actually had attended several of Mr. McCarthy's seminars, so that may be what they meant. Adding it to their teaching. I may have just misunderstood.
The version of Seisan I learned from my teacher is of Matsumura type seisan as you stated. After watching Seisan demonstrated.
Of course Matsubayashi Shorin ryu does not teach seisan. Not sure why, didn't Kyan Chotoku teach seisan?
When I was younger I was really confused when I would see people from different styles (Goju ryu and Uechi ryu) performing seisan and they were very differenty from the Seisan that I learned and saw witnessed demonstrated by Shorin ryu stylist.
twendkata71
Black Belt
On a side note. Kyudokan shorin ryu (Higa)-their seisan looks like the Aragaki Seisan demonstrated by McCarthy's students. From the video that I saw.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Chubu just means "middle"
Most likely. The McCarthy Seisan (I just can't bring myself to calling it Aragaki Seisan, since it is McCarthy's creation, taking elements from the various other Seisan kata in existense and has nothing to do with Seisho Aragaki)
The reason for this, based on what I've been told, is that when Nagamine came to Kyan, he already had some experience in karate, so there was no need to teach him Seisan, which is the foundation kata for Kyan lineage
They are different, yes, but on the other hand, when I started looking past the "external form", I noticed the similarities in Goju and Shorin Seisan (not that familiar with the Uechi version). My opinion is that they are related (cousins, if you will), both stemming from the same "proto-Seisan" that has been lost in the sands of time. Shorin Seisan has become "okinawasized", where as the Goju Seisan has evolved on a different path in a different culture.
twendkata71
Black Belt
First off, yes I know that Chubu means middle. The Shorin ryu teacher that I was talking about refered to it as such. Probably Shobayashi Shorin ryu.
I do have a question. If Kyan never trained with Itosu, why do forms of Shorin ryu,Shorinji ryu teach Pinan kata? Since Itosu is credited with creating the Pinan kata? Do not all Shorin ryu styles and most Shorinji ryu teach the Pinan series kata? Did Kyan teach the Pinan kata? Again the reason I ask is that in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, when they list Kyan Chotoku's teachers they also list Itosu. Eventhough, since Kyan trained with Matsumura Sokon directly, why would he train with Itosu, wouldn't Kyan have been Itosu's senior in Matsumura lineage? Perhaps they trained together no so much as student and teacher, but peers exchanging ideas. What do you think?
As with most karate schools/styles, who you speak to, is the version of the answer/history you get. And since much of Karate's earlier history was handed down in oral tradition instead of written form(Original Okinawan language didn't use a written language of their own, or so I am told. instead later using Chinese or Japanese as their written language).
Since we can't go back in time to find out first hand information, we have to rely on word of mouth handed down through the generations. Who's version of history/or truth do we believe? Assuming that all history was given honestly and with sincerity. Which one's put their own spin on the story of embellish it?
I do have a question. If Kyan never trained with Itosu, why do forms of Shorin ryu,Shorinji ryu teach Pinan kata? Since Itosu is credited with creating the Pinan kata? Do not all Shorin ryu styles and most Shorinji ryu teach the Pinan series kata? Did Kyan teach the Pinan kata? Again the reason I ask is that in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, when they list Kyan Chotoku's teachers they also list Itosu. Eventhough, since Kyan trained with Matsumura Sokon directly, why would he train with Itosu, wouldn't Kyan have been Itosu's senior in Matsumura lineage? Perhaps they trained together no so much as student and teacher, but peers exchanging ideas. What do you think?
As with most karate schools/styles, who you speak to, is the version of the answer/history you get. And since much of Karate's earlier history was handed down in oral tradition instead of written form(Original Okinawan language didn't use a written language of their own, or so I am told. instead later using Chinese or Japanese as their written language).
Since we can't go back in time to find out first hand information, we have to rely on word of mouth handed down through the generations. Who's version of history/or truth do we believe? Assuming that all history was given honestly and with sincerity. Which one's put their own spin on the story of embellish it?
TimoS
Master of Arts
I can only answer for certainty in regards Seibukan. They were added later by Zenpo Shimabukuro, who learned them from Nakaima Chozo
He did not. Kyan taught Seisan, Ananku, Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Kusanku and Tokumine no kun. Zenryo Shimabukuro added to his curriculum Wanchin, his own creation. Zenpo Shimabukuro added, in addition to Pinan 1-5, also Naifanchi 1-3, Jion and Passai Gwa. He learned all these from Nakaima Chozo, who, if I remember correctly, was a Chibana's student.
Yes, I know, but Nagamine was the only student of Kyan to make that connection.
When Kyan was studying with Matsumura, Matsumura was already an old man, so it is likely that the actual teachings would have been conducted by Azato. When Kyan went with his father to mainland Japan, Matsumura died before he had the opportunity to come back. Also, Itosu was older that Kyan, so I think Itosu would have been Kyan's senior.
That is certainly possible and it is almost certain that Kyan was familiar with Itosu and what he taught. After all, Itosu was a nobleman also as was Kyan's father.
That is the truth, it is often really hard to know for certainty. You have to cross-reference a lot of material, look at the physical evidence (kata) and even then it may come down to whose version of events you choose to believe. In this particular case, i.e. was Itosu Kyan's teacher we can look at the evidence:
- Nagamine is the only Kyan's student to make the connection
- Chibana, who we know to have been a long time student of Itosu, said Kyan did not learn from his teacher
twendkata71
Black Belt
Thank you for answering my questions so promptly. This is the information that I was looking for.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Well, it is quite easy, given the time difference between us
It is only 11 AM here
twendkata71
Black Belt
I thought of asking Dan Smith Kyoshi. He trains regularly with Shimabukuro Hanshi. But, no need you have answered most of my questions that I have.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Yep, I think you'll get the same answers from him. I think at least part of my knowledge comes (indirectly) from him also. I've never met him, but hopefully that will happen in August in Okinawa
chinto
Senior Master
the most influential and called the father of Karate is Sokan 'bushi' Matsumura. that is because he is credited with creating a combination of all the local techniques and some of the ones from china into a system first.
kusanku taugh chinese martial arts, and sakagawa did not systemize what he knew to teach to many like Sokan 'Bushi' Matsumura did.
funikoshi is well after matsumura.
kusanku taugh chinese martial arts, and sakagawa did not systemize what he knew to teach to many like Sokan 'Bushi' Matsumura did.
funikoshi is well after matsumura.
Martin h
Green Belt
There is no one that can be singled out as father of karate.
However, if you want a father of MODERN karate, I would single out Anko Itosu.
Itosu was basically the one responsible for recreating the formerly individualistically trained karate into the large-group practice art we see today. He did this with the purpose of having karate included as PE in okinawan schools. He created several introductory katas seen in most styles today (the heian/pinans), he was largely responsible for formalizing the technique syllabus into modern (and sometimes very artificial and misgiving) techniqe names.
Many of his students has already been mentioned as other potential fathers in this thread. Funakoshi being one of them. Actually Funakoshis main addition to karate was his borrowing of judo uniforms and grading system into karate. Funakoshi was also the first to do a Demo infront of the Emperor, but he was not the first to open a dojo on mainland Japan (I THINK that was Motobu, but Im to lazy to check). Funakoshi is often credited with inventing the name karte, but he was actually far from the first to use it.
However, if you want a father of MODERN karate, I would single out Anko Itosu.
Itosu was basically the one responsible for recreating the formerly individualistically trained karate into the large-group practice art we see today. He did this with the purpose of having karate included as PE in okinawan schools. He created several introductory katas seen in most styles today (the heian/pinans), he was largely responsible for formalizing the technique syllabus into modern (and sometimes very artificial and misgiving) techniqe names.
Many of his students has already been mentioned as other potential fathers in this thread. Funakoshi being one of them. Actually Funakoshis main addition to karate was his borrowing of judo uniforms and grading system into karate. Funakoshi was also the first to do a Demo infront of the Emperor, but he was not the first to open a dojo on mainland Japan (I THINK that was Motobu, but Im to lazy to check). Funakoshi is often credited with inventing the name karte, but he was actually far from the first to use it.
kohelet
White Belt
As for ancient Okinawan fighting systems I feel there is no way of knowing who was the first to teach them. What would develop into modern karate in my opinion would have been Tode Sakugawa. His combination of Kusanku's Chinese martial art with Takahara pechin's Te is where Okinawa-te began. Its my understanding that his student Matsumura founded Shuri-Te and the Naha-Te began as a blend of Shuri-te with a style of Kempo from China by Higaonna. If this development is incorrect, some help would be appreciated.
With folded hands,
Eric Eubanks, 4th Dan
With folded hands,
Eric Eubanks, 4th Dan
No - that's the "God-Father" of Karate!:burp:
chinto
Senior Master
well the closest choice would be Sokon 'Bushi' Matsumura. I would say that is so as he was the first to systematize the Okinawan TE and the Chuan Fa he had learned and put it into a codified system.
Sorry for coming into this so late.
Timo,
There is a family connection between the Kyans and the Chibanas. I don't remember exactly what, but they were distant relatives. Therefore Chibana would have been well aware if Kyan studied with Itosu.
Nakama was a student of Chibana along with Miyahira and Nakazato. Nakama and Miyahira were the only two that also trained with Motobu Choki.
I was told, that before the Pinan, Matusumura based karate syllabus was like Kyans. With the adoption of the Pinan, the curriculum was modified and so kata like Jion and Seisan were omitted. My guess it that it was redundant material. Chibana based karate typically has 5 kihon kata, 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, 2 Passai, 2 Kusanku, Chinto and Gojushi-ho. That's 19 kata! More than enough.
Peace.
Timo,
There is a family connection between the Kyans and the Chibanas. I don't remember exactly what, but they were distant relatives. Therefore Chibana would have been well aware if Kyan studied with Itosu.
Nakama was a student of Chibana along with Miyahira and Nakazato. Nakama and Miyahira were the only two that also trained with Motobu Choki.
I was told, that before the Pinan, Matusumura based karate syllabus was like Kyans. With the adoption of the Pinan, the curriculum was modified and so kata like Jion and Seisan were omitted. My guess it that it was redundant material. Chibana based karate typically has 5 kihon kata, 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, 2 Passai, 2 Kusanku, Chinto and Gojushi-ho. That's 19 kata! More than enough.
Peace.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Hmm, interesting. I'll have to ask my sources if they know more about that. I don't remember hearing about it before, but that doesn't prove anything
TimoS
Master of Arts
Hmm, interesting nevertheless. I seem to remember a family connection between Kyan and Motobu families. I'll see if I can find more info about that one.
