Who is the father of Karate
- Thread starter Manny
- Start date
Ah, you are very wise!
Nah just old...so old lol!
If anything it was the weapons ban in Okinawa that is the father of karate, no one would have placed a great importance on unarmed combat if they'd been able to use weapons would they?
I tend to find lineage discussions a bit of a tussle between people who want to prove who has the most 'genuine' art and they tend to end up in arguments lol!
Personally, I feel that the importance of lineage is in the study of how a style or system developed rather than for pedigree purposes.
For example, the fact that Taekwondo can trace its lineage to or through Shotokan does not make Shotokan greater or lesser, but it allows me to better understand the roots of taekwondo and better understand the thought behind the techniques.
In addition, knowing which Kwan my particular instructor can ultimately trace his lineage to may give insights into how techniques are viewed within his lineage. Now, as my GM is Kukkiwon and is not old enough to have been a part of an original pre-KKW kwan makes this less important, but knowing that his instructor was Kang Duk Won explains some of GM Kim's view of taekwondo.
Daniel
For example, the fact that Taekwondo can trace its lineage to or through Shotokan does not make Shotokan greater or lesser, but it allows me to better understand the roots of taekwondo and better understand the thought behind the techniques.
In addition, knowing which Kwan my particular instructor can ultimately trace his lineage to may give insights into how techniques are viewed within his lineage. Now, as my GM is Kukkiwon and is not old enough to have been a part of an original pre-KKW kwan makes this less important, but knowing that his instructor was Kang Duk Won explains some of GM Kim's view of taekwondo.
Daniel
I like that view of it! It when it's used for bragging rights or to boast it annoys me as it does when the lineage becomes more important than actually practising the art!
Omar B
Senior Master
Chuck's style is something I've always wanted to check out. School not distributed evenly around the country though.
Absolutely!
My other big issue with lineage is when it is purposely falsified in order to remove an art from its actual lineage and dress it up as being thousands of years old or to have origins that it does not really have. Aside from that I do not care to be lied to, it also makes letigimate research of art's techniques more difficult.
Daniel
If we're being nonliteral, I'd have to say it was Southern Chinese Kung Fu that was the father of karate (as separate from the unarmed techniques of the Ryukyuans before hand).
IMHO none of these are 'fathers' but more 'children', 'grandchildren' or 'great grandchildren' of the real 'fathers of karate'. It is the legacy of the 'fathers' that the children and the rest of us have inherited. :asian:
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Nice Daniel, nice!
My own lineage went from Lee Stultz/Willie Rankins/Clinton Robinson->Jong H. Lee->Hwang Kee. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a 'real' history of who GM Hwang Kee learned under, but it goes back at least that far. I know GM JH Lee is a KKW 9th, along with MDK (TKD). Also, the group was doing TSD at the start of the 70's and then switched to TKD and taught in China in the early 70's.
Anyway, I find a similar feeling about it, and nuances of techniques from it's roots in TSD MDK (side kicks differ greatly from KKW standard side kicks etc, although I do both kinds). It's nice to know your family tree, who/what/where/when and all that.
A great post, but I think the most influental Tode master was Seisho Aragaki. He trained many of the masters that have been mentioned and he was considered to bethe best of his day. Not a lot is known of him as he left no style behind, but he influenced Goju-ryu, Chito-ryu, Tomari-te, Naha-te, Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Shito-ryu,...... He left behind many kata that are shared in many styles.
Who is the Father? There is not one single Father. There are many masters that share the title.
Here is a link which gives an indication of the contribution made by some of the originators of karate. http://www.angelfire.com/sk/budokai/Katainfo.html
If you would like to read a little about Seisho Aragaki check out:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=97
If you would like to read a little about Seisho Aragaki check out:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=97
twendkata71
Black Belt
I was not stating who was the most influential Master of Karate, I list Sakagawa "Toide" because he is know as the first to teach/develop the Chinese arts into what is known today as karate.
As far as Aragaki goes, he also created his own version of Seisan, this version is taught in Many of the Shorin schools as well as being the Hangetsu kata in Shotokan. And is very different from the Seisan of Goju ryu(Hiagoanna-Miyagi) lineage. Yes, he did have a great deal of influence on the karate being developed in his time.
I stated Sakagawa as a father of karate because he is a generation or two before Aragaki. Sakagawa was before Hiagoanna Kanryo, Matsumura Sokon(Sakagawa was Matsumura's teacher), Matsumora Kusanku,etc.
Sakagawa's teacher's were Pechin Takahara and Kusanku from China. Sakagawa was said to have actually traveled to China to train at Shoalin(Don't know if this is fact or not), it is known that he did train in China after meeting and learning from Kusanku(Chinese trade envoy, and or Military attache'), Sakagawa is said to have created the kata Kusanku in honor of his teacher or from his teachings.
Also many today call the old Okinawan art Tode/Toide, when I believe the correct term(in Okinawan Dialect is ) Uchinadi. They may have been separate arts, not sure, will research that somemore. I have also read that Sakagawa was a master of Ti(royal court/family art) indigenous to Okinawa and different from what is know as Te/Toide/ or Uchinadi. Ti originally only being handed down from father to son within a certain family, no outside students, or to high ranking court officials of the Ryukyu kingdom. When I have witnessed demonstations of Ti, it looks like Aikido/Aikijujitsu more than a karate/or striking art. I am no expert in this art so I do not know the facts. I do know by being on the receiving end of some of its techniques that when it is combined with Karate it has a devastating effect on the person on the receiving end of the attack. I have also been told that many of the Okinawan karate kata have hidden ti elements in them. I believe that Uehara was the first to openly teach Ti to outsiders(non family), at least of the Motobu ryu style of Ti. I do know that Higa O'sensei of the Bugei Kan school on Okinawa also taught Ti and karate to the public, his style of Ti of a different lineage of that of the Motobu family.
Yes, there are several "Fathers of karate" on Okinawa of different origins. All were influenced by some style of Chinese martial art/boxing style.
Shorin style being of White Crane boxing and Shoalin lineage more northern chinese styles.
Goju ryu and Uechi ryu being of southern styles of Chaun Fa.
Uechi ryu looks more like its original Chinese style(Pang Gai Noon) [more flowing and softer looking movements,than most Okinawan karate styles[which are more linear, stiffer and less circular, with the exception of Goju ryu].
There is also the Kojo ryu family style that is more Chinese gung fu than karate.
Again this is the conclusion of the research I have done and what I have found so far from contacting martial artist from Japan, Okinawa and here in the US.
My research is a work in process and if others have more valid information on these subjects please share so that I can update my research information.
twendkata71
Black Belt
I have no arguement there. You are correct in that it would be more accurate to classify these men as the 'Children','Grandchildren' or 'Greatgrand children of the Real fathers of Karate/Te/Uchinadi.
Some of the facts are that
Nagamine Shoshin-founder of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu karate, was a third generation student of the Matsumura Sokon lineage, learning from Kyan,Arakaki,and Motobu-students of Itosu-who was a student of Matsumura.
Shimabukuro Eizo(Shobayashi Shorin ryu Soke) was a student of Kyan Chotoku and Toyaman Kanken both students of Itosu Ankoh.
Nagazato Shugoro(Shorinkan Shorin ryu/Kobayash Ryu) was a student of Chibanna Chosin-student of Itosu
Nagazato Joen(Shorinji ryu) was a student of Itosu and Nakamura Shigeru(Okinawan Kenpo/Kempo).
Soken Hohan(Seito Matsumura Shorin ryu) was a student of Matsumura Nabe(nepew of Matsumura Sokon), and would be considered a second generation student of Matsumura lineage karate.
Matsubayashi Shorin ryu being considered a newer style of Shorin ryu karate,Kobayashi and Shobayashi being created(named) earlier.
The three main styles of Shorin ryu are (Matsubayashi,Kobayashi and Shobayashi) and Seito Matsumura shorin ryu being a more obscure style of Shorin ryu, eventhough is has a more direct lineage, is not has widespread as the other there. Now there are many factions of Shorin ryu, just like there are many factions of Shito ryu,Goju ryu, and even Uechi ryu in the karate world. And most if not all claiming to be the more authentic version of the chosen style.
All of that and the politics in karate gives me a headache. Why can't karate just be karate and be done with it, without all of the "Egos". To me karate is karate, I don't care what style someone is. If I can learn something useful from them(i.e. their style) then it is useful to me and real karate. Japanese Karate,Okinawan karate, Korean Karate, American karate. I enjoy all and find all useful and important. There are however Many "so called" American and Japanese karate styles out there[created out of ego,or whatever] that frankly lack depth,practicality,and effectiveness that are being passed off as legitemate styles/forms of karate.
Nowadays with a new "Soke" and "Style" popping up every so often, I can see how it is hard for people(general public) to take karate seriously. This is not just an American issue, the same thing is happening in Japan,Korea,India and other countries. Many martial artist today are too interested in becoming a "Soke". "10th dan", "Founder" too quickly and not developing actual substance in their style, believing that high rank will lead to a quick buck or more money and not caring how it effects karate,Taekwondo,Martial arts as a whole. Its sad really.
My teacher held the same rank for almost 30 years before considering promotion to a higher rank. I know dedicated karate ka that have been the same rank for 40 years and because their sensei has passed away or has parted ways, have no interst in going higher in rank, instead focusing on their training and development of the style they learned, quality instead of quantity, or fame or money.
I read a lot of people bashing Taekwondo stating that it is not as authentic,effective,etc. as Japanese,or Okinawan karate. And yes, Taekwondo is a fairly new art, with influences/origins with Japanese Karate do, but in fact, Korean martial arts have a longer history than Japanese,Okinawan or Chinese Martial arts. Archeologist having found depictions of martial arts training on Tomb and temple walls that are 5,000 years old. Far predating Chinese 2000 years old,Japanese 1,500 to 1,600 years old or Okinawan less than a thousand years old- martial arts. Most Japanese would never admit to the Korean culture or the Korean's being the forefathers of most marial arts. Nor would the Chinese or Okinawan's(eventhough the Okinawans are not as obssesed with such things).
Other origins(forefathers of martial arts) are India with temple carvings depicting martial arts training at least 3,000 to 4,000 years old, and Egyptian tombs with depictions of marial arts training 6,000 years old.
Since the earliest prehistory, humans have developed some sort of self defense/self protection forms out of necessity. Weither it be weapons forms, or empty hand forms.
Where it all began who knows and has been lost to the sands of time.
Perhaps as some legends suggest the Ancient Advanced Culture of Atlantis created the first Martial or Military arts/training methods, that have been filtered throughout globe of the over the last 10,000 or so years. Of course no solid proof of Atlantis, its knowlege, culture,etc. truely exists.
Other far out theories(non Christian or Judeo/Christian, Muslim or religion based) people claim that we are all decendent of Aliens who put us here and have cultivated out development through the Eons with frequent visits.
If this were true, who knows the Martial arts we know today could, in theory be Millions or Billions of years old and have just been recycled over thousands of years of human evolution of knowledge and learning(not that I believe in Evolution in the traditional sense. This seems totally unlikely to me being a Christian-Human being and have faith in a higher power and not Alien ancestory theories.
Who really knows. LOL.
Sorry a bit off topic. Hehe. Peace to all, keep training hard.
Live long and prosper.Etc. etc.:asian::karate::yoda::bangahead::yinyang::shinzaki::aoyagi::spock::ultracool
As for me I will get back to my training and researching in all things Budo.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
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The answer is simple. Establish just who the son of karate is..then it stands to reason that the father of karate is that kids granddad....
deductive reasoning ba-by! Gets it every time!
j
deductive reasoning ba-by! Gets it every time!
j
twendkata71
Black Belt
In karate terms, my father in Karate is Don Madden Soke of the Seiei Kan karate do. My grandfather would be Onishi Eizo Hanshi, my great grandfather would be Toyama Kanken Hanshi, my Great great Grandfather would be Itosu Ankoh(shuri te), and my Great Great Great Grandfather of karate would be Matsumura Sokon, and my Great Great Great Great grandfather would be the grandfather of all Okinawan Shuri based styles Sakagawa Toide.
On the other side of my lineage would be again Don Madden soke as my father, Onishi as my grandfather, Jyihatsu as my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather would be Hiagoanna kanryoh of Naha te tradition.
On the Shotokan tradition of my lineage would be Mikami Teriyuki Hanshi 8th dan JKA as father, Nakayama Matayoshi 9th dan as grand father, Funakoshi Gichin as great great Grandfather, Itosu Ankoh and Azato Ankon as the great great Great Grandfathers, Matsumura sokon as the Great Great Great Great Grandfathers, and Sakagawa Toide as the Great great great great great Grand father.
In my Shorin ryu(Matsubayashi) lineage, my karate father was James Driggs Kyoshi 8th dan(currently) he was 5th dan when I was training with him, James Wax as the grand father, Nagamine Shoshin O'sensei would be the great grandfather, Kyan Chotoku would be the great great grandfather, Itosu again would be the great great great grandfather and so on.
In my Shito ryu tradition, would be Minobu miki Hanshi Hayashi ha/Seito Ha Shito ryu and Jane VanPhaphagen (shukokai Kempo-Tani Ha Shito ryu) would be the father/mother, Hayashi Teruo and Tani Chujiro would be the Grandfathers, Mabuni Kenwa would be the Great great grandfather, Itosu and Hiagoanna again would be the great great great grandgathers, and Matsumura and Gokenki would be the great great great great grandfathers, and so on.
I wouldn't have the lineage in my goju ryu and Wado training as is was very limited.
I have also had Chinese kenpo karate training, Judo and Aikido training, but only on a limited small basis.
I have had extensive Jujitsu training, but I would have to do a lot of research to learn the complete lineage of that line of tradition.
In Okinawan kobudo I have to lines of lineage from both major lines of Okinawan Kobudo(Ryukyu Kobudo-Taira lineage and Okinawan/or Matayoshi lineage Kobudo) which are distinclty different in technique and dynamics.
My Father as far as Matayoshi Lineage would be Mike Bukala Kyoshi 8th dan USA kobudo kan, Nishiuchi Hanshi as the grand father, Matayoshi Shinpo as the great grandfather, and Matayoshi Shinyo as the great great grandfather.
In Ryukyu Kobudo(taira type-Ryukyu kobudo hozon shinkokai) would be the mother would be Devorah Domeitrich Kyoshi 8th dan, grandfather would be Akemine, and Taira O'sensei as the great grandfather. This avenue in Kobudo I intend continue learning this year.
I know it sounds like a lot, but I have been in the martial arts for 29 years total, including my introduction to Judo and boxing by my actual father. And the rest of my 28 years in karate do and 18 years of Jujitsu/and other arts were spent constantly traveling, training, going to seminars, camps, tournaments/seminars, and visiting other dojo's to further my knowledge,development and understanding of the arts developing myself as a person(as Funakoshi stated"Seeking perfection of Character"). :asian::karate::bangahead:
On the other side of my lineage would be again Don Madden soke as my father, Onishi as my grandfather, Jyihatsu as my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather would be Hiagoanna kanryoh of Naha te tradition.
On the Shotokan tradition of my lineage would be Mikami Teriyuki Hanshi 8th dan JKA as father, Nakayama Matayoshi 9th dan as grand father, Funakoshi Gichin as great great Grandfather, Itosu Ankoh and Azato Ankon as the great great Great Grandfathers, Matsumura sokon as the Great Great Great Great Grandfathers, and Sakagawa Toide as the Great great great great great Grand father.
In my Shorin ryu(Matsubayashi) lineage, my karate father was James Driggs Kyoshi 8th dan(currently) he was 5th dan when I was training with him, James Wax as the grand father, Nagamine Shoshin O'sensei would be the great grandfather, Kyan Chotoku would be the great great grandfather, Itosu again would be the great great great grandfather and so on.
In my Shito ryu tradition, would be Minobu miki Hanshi Hayashi ha/Seito Ha Shito ryu and Jane VanPhaphagen (shukokai Kempo-Tani Ha Shito ryu) would be the father/mother, Hayashi Teruo and Tani Chujiro would be the Grandfathers, Mabuni Kenwa would be the Great great grandfather, Itosu and Hiagoanna again would be the great great great grandgathers, and Matsumura and Gokenki would be the great great great great grandfathers, and so on.
I wouldn't have the lineage in my goju ryu and Wado training as is was very limited.
I have also had Chinese kenpo karate training, Judo and Aikido training, but only on a limited small basis.
I have had extensive Jujitsu training, but I would have to do a lot of research to learn the complete lineage of that line of tradition.
In Okinawan kobudo I have to lines of lineage from both major lines of Okinawan Kobudo(Ryukyu Kobudo-Taira lineage and Okinawan/or Matayoshi lineage Kobudo) which are distinclty different in technique and dynamics.
My Father as far as Matayoshi Lineage would be Mike Bukala Kyoshi 8th dan USA kobudo kan, Nishiuchi Hanshi as the grand father, Matayoshi Shinpo as the great grandfather, and Matayoshi Shinyo as the great great grandfather.
In Ryukyu Kobudo(taira type-Ryukyu kobudo hozon shinkokai) would be the mother would be Devorah Domeitrich Kyoshi 8th dan, grandfather would be Akemine, and Taira O'sensei as the great grandfather. This avenue in Kobudo I intend continue learning this year.
I know it sounds like a lot, but I have been in the martial arts for 29 years total, including my introduction to Judo and boxing by my actual father. And the rest of my 28 years in karate do and 18 years of Jujitsu/and other arts were spent constantly traveling, training, going to seminars, camps, tournaments/seminars, and visiting other dojo's to further my knowledge,development and understanding of the arts developing myself as a person(as Funakoshi stated"Seeking perfection of Character"). :asian::karate::bangahead:
TimoS
Master of Arts
Really? In which Shorin schools do you see Aragaki Seisan? To my knowledge, it is an extinct kata and the only Aragaki Seisan you see today is the modern hybrid by McCarthy. The Shorin schools I know of that use Seisan (i.e. Kyan lineage) train Matsumura Seisan.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Kyan was not student of Itosu and, as said in another thread, Itosu was Matsumura's student only for a short time. His main teacher was (most likely) Gusukuma of Tomari
Nope, Nagazato Joen was a student of Kyan, not Itosu. I'll have to check about Nakamura Shigeru, but I can't say that I've ever heard about that.
Debatable, but let's not get into that
Fourth being Sukunaihayashi, i.e. Zenryo Shimabukuro's Seibukan. Zenryo, not Eizo Shimabukuro was the seniormost student of Kyan at the time of his death.
How very true
Sadly, the authentic korean arts are all but extinct. Taekkyon and the ssirum/ssierum (a form of wrestling) are the only ones still left and at least Taekkyon was nearly extinct as well after WWII.
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