Who here is backing up its striking art with grappling?

[big351stang]

if you alter your techniques you can apply most anything when you are on the ground. use your bloce and then turn it into a pin then strike. you dont have to take another art to get ground work in jsut take what you knwo and apply it to the ground it does work.

 

[Bushido]

Yeah but, dont forget escapes ans sweeps witch are THE most important techniques on the ground. It is not that easy on the ground, even if your opponent is having no martial art background.

-Bushido

 

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by cdhall

I'm sorry. I'm confused. I'll restate my positions.

We have a lot of takedowns and follow up strikes.
We have a lot of joint attacks, sprains, hyperextensions and stuff either explicit or implicit in the system.

Is it because your not executing these things on the ground that you believe that they don't apply?

Encounter with Danger is the only technique I think I know where you attack/defend yourself from the ground, so we don' t have a lot of "groundfighting" that I have encountered.

This is the only technique that lends itself to grappling? A choke is a choke and a lock a lock no matter the position. Is it not?

:asian: Sumdumguy

 

[Eraser]

Hey all....


I must say that this Hapkido-girl.. is thank-ful for being taught some ground grappling techniques... sheesh.. think about it gang.. if somones ontop of you in a choke hold... how long do you think you have to make a move before you pass out?????? 6 seconds.. 10 seconds??? that's not really long.. so my suggestion is be prepared for any type of situation.. im not just saying this cuz im a woman.. and typically that may be the situation women can get into during an attack.. but.. hey.. if you move doesn't work on your attacker.. and your on the ground.. you better darn well be prepared..

Thats all i wanted to say!!!

:asian:

 

[sweeper]

if they get a good choke you should pass out in 2 or 3 seconds (if they cut 99% of the blood to your brain) if they get a bad one it could last a long time.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by cdhall



Yes, sir. I met this guy when my instructor had him in for a seminar. It was the plan to have the guy down twice a year or so and have him continue to work grappling with us. I like the fact that he is a Kenpo guy who has formally studied Jiu-Jitsu and this is an appeal. This same guys says it is really just "Kenpo on the ground." He seems to think there is a lot we can apply from what we alredy know. In a very similar situation, I have used some of what I know from EPAK while on the ground and the Concepts and Principles did apply. That was also encouraging to me.

Thank you.
:asian:

No jujitsu for us- AK. Where did you meet him? It would have had to been on the west coast if you did.

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

I'm doing a poor job of communicating my point. I'll try again.

My point is that EPAK is not Jiu-Jitsu, they don't look alike, one is made for standing up and striking, one is made for fighting while you are on the ground. That is all I meant. Naturally you can use some of both in both situations and I have done some of this and been surprised to see it work. And, yes, a choke is a choke... Mr. Sears came to our camp once by the way. He was a Black Belt with Mr. Parker and Mr. Parker sent Mr. Sears to "check out those Gracie guys" back in the 80's. So Mr. Sears went, got a Black Belt with them, and came back. We met him around 95. He did several demos where he had his partner tapping out from a choke in under 1 second. He said "This stuff doesn' t have to take all day." So if you are being choked, you might have 1 second if the person is accomplished at that stuff (Eraser).

I meant that the only "ground" technique we have, that is taught as you fighting from the groud is Encounter with Danger. If I'm not mistaken, Leap from Danger has you hit the ground, roll, get back up and strike which I think is our preference. Get up and strike while standing. That's all I meant. We don't have any "techniques" that are "groundfighting" in the Ideal Phase. I didn't mean that we don't have stuff that does not work on the ground. But still, a Purple/Blue Belt in BJJ is WAAAY more experienced on the ground than I am as a Brown Belt in EPAK. That is what I was getting at.

The "guy" I was talking about was a former Black Belt of Mr. Duffy. His name is Darryl Simpson. He went to California and began studying Machado Jiu-Jitsu and came back to TX to visit Mr. Duffy and did a seminar/workout for us to show us some Jiu-Jitsu/Groundfighting. So yes, he was from the West Coast, but we had him here teaching us when he visited Austin, TX.

I hope I cleared up some confusion.
:asian:

 

[sumdumguy]

If you are no longer confused then yes, I however have not taught any seminars in TX Yet. There is time though.

Aaaahhhhh that's enough!!!!
Thanks Sumdumguy :asian:

 

[Chiduce]

We do throw when it is too our advantage. However, the use of choking throws, striking throws, and strangle strike throwing combinations etc, are taught depending on the violence involved with the confrontation. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Kirk]

Interesting discussion. Let me throw into the mix that I find
MMA/Pankration/Grapplers alone to be quite confrontational.
They come into forums like this all over the web and talk about
how great their system is, and how terrible the others are. They'll
use titles such as "Anything Other Than Pankration SUCKS" and
will post "I don't want to start a flame war here"
They say that most MAists will never fight another MAist ... I think
that's mostly true, with the exception of Pankrationists, MMAists,
whatever you wanna call them. They seem that confrontational,
and seem to want SO BADLY to prove that other styles are a
waste of time, that I think they'd actually pick a fight with an
MAist, just to put a BIGGER chip on their shoulder. I'm big time
curious about the instructors of these styles, because we all
know .. bad teacher = bad student and teacher with attitude =
student with attitude. I wouldn't mention this at all if I didn't feel
it was a common attitude among these practitioners. It sure is
in forums all over the net! And in true MMA/Pankration/Whatever
style, let me just say .. I'm not bringing this up to start a flame
war, I'd like to discuss this! I'd like to know where the tude
comes from?

 

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by sweeper

if they get a good choke you should pass out in 2 or 3 seconds (if they cut 99% of the blood to your brain) if they get a bad one it could last a long time.

It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

 

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Kirk

Interesting discussion. Let me throw into the mix that I find
MMA/Pankration/Grapplers alone to be quite confrontational.
They come into forums like this all over the web and talk about
how great their system is, and how terrible the others are. They'll
use titles such as "Anything Other Than Pankration SUCKS" and
will post "I don't want to start a flame war here"

Some of them do, but not all of them. There are plenty of MMA forums out there which are big and well-behaved.

I'm big time
curious about the instructors of these styles, because we all
know .. bad teacher = bad student and teacher with attitude =
student with attitude. I wouldn't mention this at all if I didn't feel
it was a common attitude among these practitioners. It sure is
in forums all over the net! And in true MMA/Pankration/Whatever
style, let me just say .. I'm not bringing this up to start a flame
war, I'd like to discuss this! I'd like to know where the tude
comes from?

It varies. EVERY art has it's assholes, MMA styles are no different. The Gracies and Machados are gentlemen. Ken Shamrock seems like a nice guy, a family man.

Which instructors specifically do you think encourages a bad attitude in practitioners?

I think a lot of the problem people have with the attitudes of MMA people is that by nature they are competetive and want to pressure-test and compete. They see no problem with challenging or calling another style on it's practices and offer no respect which is not earned. In short, they are not PC.

But they do keep a lot of people honest....

 

[Bushido]

The problem is that they consider the ma as a sport, and who say sport say competition, challenge. So they challenge to prove that they are the best.


-Bushido

 

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Bushido

The problem is that they consider the ma as a sport, and who say sport say competition, challenge. So they challenge to prove that they are the best.

I would say for most of them it's more a case of finding out what works in free training, not necessarily who is 'the best'.

The basic starting point in the thinking of MMA people is that if you can't make it work on a resisting opponent then it probably isn't functional.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, btw

 

[sweeper]

well I have never met any high end MMA people but some of my freinds have and from what I hear their pritty much all nice people, I don't think it's the people you would see in UFC matches that are training people like this, I think it's less experienced fighters..

and I didn't say a perfect choke was probable, I said it was posable. I have seen a 4 second choke out in judo, as for 2 or 3 I'm not 100% on it but I think it's physicaly posable.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Morpheus

Which instructors specifically do you think encourages a bad attitude in practitioners?

I was just saying that the attitude has to originate somewhere.
My first assumption would be from their instructors.

 

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Kirk



I was just saying that the attitude has to originate somewhere.
My first assumption would be from their instructors.

If you meet someone with a bad attitude, do you automatically assume it's their instructor's fault?

After all, people don't walk into martial arts schools and then change their attitudes fundamentally. I would probably look to other aspects of their life such as their upbringing if they are assholes.

There's a lot of people who talk trash on the net, and generally speaking I don't think that MMA students do it more than others. It's probably just more noticeable by virtue of the fact that they are cross-trainers and so don't feel there's anything wrong with picking apart what they perceive to be the strengths or weaknesses of another style.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Morpheus



If you meet someone with a bad attitude, do you automatically assume it's their instructor's fault?

After all, people don't walk into martial arts schools and then change their attitudes fundamentally. I would probably look to other aspects of their life such as their upbringing if they are assholes.

But when you can point to a certain group and that act this way
often, then by that logic, I'd be forced to assume that
confrontational jerks flock to MMA.

Originally posted by Morpheus

There's a lot of people who talk trash on the net, and generally speaking I don't think that MMA students do it more than others. It's probably just more noticeable by virtue of the fact that they are cross-trainers and so don't feel there's anything wrong with picking apart what they perceive to be the strengths or weaknesses of another style.

Read my initial thread again .. my contention is that there's a
pattern to it. In addition, check out this forum, and other non
MMA forums on this page. Yes, you'll find buttholes all over, but
it usually stems from a disagreement, NOT someone just coming
out and going "hey, your style sucks" or "MT vs. TKD .. who'd
win?" or going into an existing thread and going WAY WAY off
topic saying "you should look into grappling" or "that would
never happen in pankration". Also notice I used the
word "incessant" ... it happens a lot, check out other forums.
It's been my experience, and mine alone, I asked if others have
seen it too.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Morpheus



It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

Morpheus,

I don't know the exact biology behind it but I posted elsewhere that at a training camp we held sometime between 1991 and 1994 I think, Mr. Sears (don't know his full name or anything) was confronted with this and asked for volunteers and someone with a stopwatch to time him. He Repeatedly made people tap in under 1 second. 0.75 seconds might have been the record for the day, but it was one of the times I remember. He was of course trying to get his guy to tap, I imagine that if he went straight for the knockout, he would have been faster.

Also, at another camp, perhaps in '91 Prof. John Sepulveda (www.jskenpo.com) was teaching Sleeper. There was a guy there named Mr. Jeffrey Dix. He is a big guy who was a Prison Guard at San Quentin. He probably used his stuff in real life on a weekly basis. But he had a very thick neck and Dared Mr. Sepulveda to choke him out. He said "No one has ever choked me out. That would not work. It can't be done."

You guessed it. Mr. Sepulveda tapped him out immediately, had him tapping on contact. Mr. Dix was so amazed that he had him do it twice. Mr. Dix was a believer.

I'm sure that this is possible. I'm not easy to choke out either with these holds. I understand that there are two ways to choke someone out.

Strangulation involves restricting bloodflow to the brain is the way most of these are supposed to work.

Choking restricts airflow via the Trachea and is very dangerous and may cause death via damage to the Trachea during the choke.

When people choke me, I usually feel it in the throat and tap sooner. This often made me skeptical about "going out" with a strangulation choke because they don't often work on me. But last week when we were working grappling in class, the teacher did get me in a strangulation hold and I could feel myself fading right away. In under 1 second my priority became "tap out." In the street this would have to be "get out" and I would need to get out right away or fall unconscious. Mr. Duffy can also cause me to fade out. I've never been rendered unconscious, but I have felt myself fading.

I hope this helps. For a long time I didn't believe this either. Mr. Sears told us in his class that at the Gracies you had to know CPR and revival and that it was a requirement to get choked out so you'd know how it felt. It is dangerous to work this stuff properly, he says before you can work it for real, you MUST be sure that you are able to revive your partner. So lots of places just don't train this way. We don't really. We've never choked anyone out in class, getting them to tap is enough. You have established at that point that they are no longer a threat. They are worried about not passing out and very often they will comply.

I confess a grappler... may try an escape in a real situation, but in a real situation you wouldn't be waiting on them to tap either, you'd choke them out and proceed to whatever the next step would be.

I relate these stories in an effort to broaden everyone's experience. That is why we are here. I don't want to argue whether this is real or not. As Mr. Parker says "To feel is to believe."

Thank you.
:asian:

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Morpheus



It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

Anything is possible. It's not just the lack of blood flow, it's also the lack of air. I had to apply a choke hold on a person that was trying to fight me. I've done this 100 times, most did not pass out completely. Well I had the choke on this person for less than 3 seconds. He went completely limp and passed out. Scared me pretty bad, I thought I killed him. It took a good 2 minutes to wake him up.

So yes, it is possible.