Which workout will give you better health benefit?

[Gerry Seymour]

Serious MA training can be boring. If you drill 250 hip throws non-stop, it can be quite boring.

It won't be too boring if you just repeat each drill 20 times.

I don't like to train just 1 punch or just 1 kick. I like to train 3 punches combo, 2 kicks combo.

I have 40 3 punches combo and 24 2 kicks combo. If I just repeat each combo 20 times, that will be

40 x 3 x 20 = 2400 punches and
24 x 2 x 20 = 960 kicks.

That will be more than enough to cover 3 miles distance.

The extended set of combos has the same effect on me. From time to time I can muster the focus to do a few dozen of a given drill (combo, punch, whatever) in a row. But unless I'm in a room with other folks doing the same, I just can't maintain intent in a repetitive drill that long.

The good news for me is that there's evidence training a given motion/task many times in a row has limited learning benefit. So there's not much reason for me to do 50 hip throws in a row (much less 250). I'm much better off doing 25 different techniques 10 times each.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The extended set of combos has the same effect on me. From time to time I can muster the focus to do a few dozen of a given drill (combo, punch, whatever) in a row. But unless I'm in a room with other folks doing the same, I just can't maintain intent in a repetitive drill that long.

The good news for me is that there's evidence training a given motion/task many times in a row has limited learning benefit. So there's not much reason for me to do 50 hip throws in a row (much less 250). I'm much better off doing 25 different techniques 10 times each.

Repetition, IMO, follows the rule of diminishing returns. I do think it helps with muscle memory but not so much in execution proficiency. I am speaking here of techniques one already knows, not just learning them. Too much repetition, in ANY activity, tends to make one lax to the point where one "can't maintain intent." That's a great way to phrase it, Gerry.

I think intent is an important mindset when practicing MA. Visualizing the opponent gives purpose to the move. I would go so far to say that practicing technique without intent is simply exercise. The intent is what makes the technique "martial." IMO, doing a move 5 times with intent is better than doing it 25 times without. When watching students practice, I think intent is one of the best indicators of who will excel in the art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Repetition, IMO, follows the rule of diminishing returns. I do think it helps with muscle memory but not so much in execution proficiency. I am speaking here of techniques one already knows, not just learning them. Too much repetition, in ANY activity, tends to make one lax to the point where one "can't maintain intent." That's a great way to phrase it, Gerry.

I think intent is an important mindset when practicing MA. Visualizing the opponent gives purpose to the move. I would go so far to say that practicing technique without intent is simply exercise. The intent is what makes the technique "martial." IMO, doing a move 5 times with intent is better than doing it 25 times without. When watching students practice, I think intent is one of the best indicators of who will excel in the art.

I'll see if I can find the study I ran into on this. I was surprised, because my expectation was that learning (muscle memory/cerebellar development) would be improved by more repetitions, to a point. The study suggested otherwise. A relatively few repetitions in a session gave peak return, and after that any additional repetitions were for marginal gain. The study was looking at simple tasks IIRC, so I extrapolated that for skill development, this would apply only once they're actually repeating the technique with some accuracy. So a brand new student probably needs to work on that new kick a while, to get to a reasonable approximation, but a student who already knows the kick should mix it in with others, doing say 10 of each, for optimal return on learning time.

Mind you, that's just talking about optimal learning. There are other reasons besides skill learning to continue doing a drill, whether it's for shugyo (the "struggle" factor), fatiguing muscles, to challenge with boredom, to work on balance, etc.

 

[Hyoho]

Repetition, IMO, follows the rule of diminishing returns. I do think it helps with muscle memory but not so much in execution proficiency. I am speaking here of techniques one already knows, not just learning them. Too much repetition, in ANY activity, tends to make one lax to the point where one "can't maintain intent." That's a great way to phrase it, Gerry.

Tell that to a Japanese 8th Dan

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tell that to a Japanese 8th Dan

I think the difference there is where the "too much" exists. They've trained themselves to be able to work repetition much longer than I have - I do think that's a skill (and probably not one I'd ever be as good at - ADHD brain simply isn't built for that).

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Let's compare the following 2 different workouts. Which one will give you better health benefit? Assume both workouts will take 1 and 1/2 hour.

1 - Repeat your MA form N time non-stop for 1 and 1/2 hour.

2 - Walk for 1 and 1/2 hour (a bit over 3 miles). While you are walking, you can drill your punch combos, kick combos, throw combos, kick/punch combos, ... at the same time.

Example of

punch combo - hook punch, back fist, over hand.
kick combo - front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick.
throw combo - foot sweep, inner hook, outer hook.
kick/punch combo - groin kick, face punch, hammer fist.

When I try method

- 1, I find out that I don't have enough motivation to do my form non-stop for 1 and 1/2 hour.
- 2, since I have to cover the 3 miles distance, I have no option but keep going until I finish my workout.

So method 2 is easier for me to do daily. Which method do you prefer?

IMO kata are not meant to be practiced in a rote
manner in the sterile world of the dojo or workout area,
This does not engage the mind and senses .
Kata need to engage the mind and senses, practicing out
door around people , and animals engages the mind/senses,
kata are designed for different terrains and
and circumstances of day and night. To really
understand them, I think they have to be practiced
in the world.

I would combine these workouts as a daily routine.
Currently I get up early each morning (about 2 hr before
I have to leave for work) go for a walk or ride
my ten speed bicycle down a bike path to The river
or canal, find a place to practice kata in a park
or open area (5 kata each day), then ride home. it does
take about an hour and 1/2, but I also get to enjoy
the morning and have shifted my entire daily schedule
to accommodate this morning time workout/ride/walk.
I go to bed earlier, drink less alcohol , eat
a better diet, and have less stress at work.

On the weekends I go for longer bike rides, and find
new places to practice, as well as visit places I enjoy.
On these days I take a book of Japanese or Chinese Poetry,
sometimes (in the summer/fall) wade in the river, then
sit in the early morning sun reading, when I get home
it is still morning and many people are just rising to
begin their day.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO kata are not meant to be practiced in a rote
manner in the sterile world of the dojo or workout area,
This does not engage the mind and senses .
Kata need to engage the mind and senses, practicing out
door around people , and animals engages the mind/senses,
kata are designed for different terrains and
and circumstances of day and night. To really
understand them, I think they have to be practiced
in the world.

I would combine these workouts as a daily routine.
Currently I get up early each morning (about 2 hr before
I have to leave for work) go for a walk or ride
my ten speed bicycle down a bike path to The river
or canal, find a place to practice kata in a park
or open area (5 kata each day), then ride home. it does
take about an hour and 1/2, but I also get to enjoy
the morning and have shifted my entire daily schedule
to accommodate this morning time workout/ride/walk.
I go to bed earlier, drink less alcohol , eat
a better diet, and have less stress at work.

On the weekends I go for longer bike rides, and find
new places to practice, as well as visit places I enjoy.
On these days I take a book of Japanese or Chinese Poetry,
sometimes (in the summer/fall) wade in the river, then
sit in the early morning sun reading, when I get home
it is still morning and many people are just rising to
begin their day.

I don't think being in nature, around either people or animals, has anything to do with understanding kata properly. They aren't mystical offerings.

 

[isshinryuronin]

wolfeI don't think being in nature, around either people or animals, has anything to do with understanding kata properly. They aren't mystical offerings.

I fully agree that such things will not lead to understanding kata or directly increase execution. Only understanding the bunkai, practicing with intent and applying the sequences against some resistance with a partner will do that.

However, there is still indirect benefit from doing the wonderful things wolfeyes posted. Practicing on varied terrain while being in unfamiliar and potentially distracting environments can lead to better mental and physical balance and help one be more adaptable.

I, too, enjoyed doing kata alone in nature (the hills separating the Simi from the San Fernando Valley) as the sun was rising. I found it quite refreshing and spiritually cleansing - the perfect end to my graveyard shift before heading home. So while not quite mystical, it was pretty darn cool. Always good to get away from home, work, noise and concrete, and spend time in the "real" world. Brings to mind the first of The Eight Precepts of Quan fa as found in the Bubishi - "The human mind is one with heaven and earth."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I fully agree that such things will not lead to understanding kata or directly increase execution. Only understanding the bunkai, practicing with intent and applying the sequences against some resistance with a partner will do that.

However, there is still indirect benefit from doing the wonderful things wolfeyes posted. Practicing on varied terrain while being in unfamiliar and potentially distracting environments can lead to better mental and physical balance and help one be more adaptable.

I, too, enjoyed doing kata alone in nature (the hills separating the Simi from the San Fernando Valley) as the sun was rising. I found it quite refreshing and spiritually cleansing - the perfect end to my graveyard shift before heading home. So while not quite mystical, it was pretty darn cool. Always good to get away from home, work, noise and concrete, and spend time in the "real" world. Brings to mind the first of The Eight Precepts of Quan fa as found in the Bubishi - "The human mind is one with heaven and earth."

Agreed. I much prefer doing my kata outdoors, and the further "out", the better. Mostly because I really enjoy being in those places, plust the bonus benefits you mentioned (balance, awareness, etc.).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Agreed. I much prefer doing my kata outdoors, and the further "out", the better. Mostly because I really enjoy being in those places, plust the bonus benefits you mentioned (balance, awareness, etc.).

Agree that outdoor training is more fun. When I'm in Austin, Texas, I like to do my walking in this trail.

When I'm in Pismo Beach, California, I like to do my walking on the beach.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

#1, without any doubt.

I recently learned to thread iron silk in ocean waves. It kind of felt like this:

You are much younger than I imagined. How bout your iron wire thread?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Here are some leg techniques that I like to do when I walk.

Almost all of these are in my warm up set that I teach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Almost all of these are in my warm up set that I teach.

Same. If you replace the spinning sweeps they do with an air-osoto-gari, and add in side/rear/front/rising elbows for hip/back flexibility, and one or two other small things, you've got my 20 minute warm-up right there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Almost all of these are in my warm up set that I teach.

I like to combine at least 2 kicks, or 2 leg skills together as combo. For example:

kicks combo:

- left toes kick, right heel kick.
- left inside crescent kick, right outside crescent kick.
- right roundhouse kick, right side kick.
- right side kick, left back kick.
- right hook kick, right roundhouse kick.
- ...

leg skills combo:

- left foot sweep, right inner hook.
- left outer hook, right scoop kick.
- right sickle hook, right leg lift.
- right inner hook, left inner hook.
- right inner hook, right scoop.
- ...

 

[Oily Dragon]

You are much younger than I imagined. How bout your iron wire thread?

It's about to go down.

I just found out my Tai Chi Chuan teacher is now instructing my Hung Kuen Si Bak in the jian.

That was the day after I realized (I already knew) the secret to living to past 115 years. POOF!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's about to go down.

I just found out my Tai Chi Chuan teacher is now instructing my Hung Kuen Si Bak in the jian.

That was the day after I realized (I already knew) the secret to living to past 115 years. POOF!

View attachment 28374Very nice! Impatiently waiting.

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

IMO kata are not meant to be practiced in a rote
manner in the sterile world of the dojo or workout area,
This does not engage the mind and senses .
Kata need to engage the mind and senses, practicing out
door around people , and animals engages the mind/senses,
kata are designed for different terrains and
and circumstances of day and night. To really
understand them, I think they have to be practiced
in the world.

You win the jackpot for this, but I would take it further.

You need to not only be in different environments for psychological reasons (which are not "mystical" considerations for the record), in terms of distractions, stresses, andfamiliarities. You should train with different clothes and different shoes.

Heck, if you never did a kata on an incline, you have nothing on understanding what is essential and what is not compared to someone who has. Unquestioned incidentals can weed themselves out from underlying principles really quickly from such training.

I really have to wonder how someone who only trains barefoot on a smooth floor all day can even walk properly in the real world, let alone fight. Train like you live. Live like you train.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You win the jackpot for this, but I would take it further.

You need to not only be in different environments for psychological reasons (which are not "mystical" considerations for the record), in terms of distractions, stresses, andfamiliarities. You should train with different clothes and different shoes.

Heck, if you never did a kata on an incline, you have nothing on understanding what is essential and what is not compared to someone who has. Unquestioned incidentals can weed themselves out from underlying principles really quickly from such training.

I really have to wonder how someone who only trains barefoot on a smooth floor all day can even walk properly in the real world, let alone fight. Train like you live. Live like you train.

So we should all go practice forms in as many different environments as possible...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So we should all go practice forms in as many different environments as possible...

Nice clear visibility, where was that? Where were your fins?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nice clear visibility, where was that? Where were your fins?

That was off the pier at Buddy Dive on Bonaire. We were waiting for Sue to finish gearing up, so I handed my fins to Kim and got silly.
Great diving there, the reef is colorful, vibrant, and mobile (lots of sponges and soft coral). Tons and tons of life. Not much in the way of big stuff; you're unlikely to see sharks and rays, but there is a fair population of Hawksbill turtles. Quite a few Tarpon. Big ones. The sign language for Tarpon directly translates as "that's not a shark".
I occasionally do silly stuff. Like forgetting to remove my hat before a wreck dive. That was weird. Every time I exhaled, the bubbles would fill the hat and screw up my trim.