Which techniques from Judo fits into Karate?

[Makalakumu]

I love quoting from Kenwa Mabuni's 1939 book Karatedo nyumon about "the karate that was introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole."

What would be some of the other parts of the larger whole, sir?

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

I can only give you my opinion based on what I was taught. Let's first look at Japanese Karate and ask what does it not have that most Okinawan systems have, once again I am coming from the Shuri reference as I have only a little training in the Naha line.

Torite, little joint locking skills are taught in Japanese Karate.

Kyusho, almost no vital point striking or manipulation is taught in the Japanese version of Karate.

Dachi, it is widely known that stances were modified or left out so that the Japanese could use what they were use to, in other words, sword stances.

Power generation techniques, here I am getting into some of the higher level stuff, but a lot of the power generation of old Karate has been removed. Most Japanese styles of Karate are "power" karate. That utilize muscular strength.

Weapons, this subject is to long to list. Go to my site and see the weapons that are listed. These are Okinawan taught weapons from the old China/Tang Hand lineage. Watch a video with Uehara and notice that among his weapons there seems to be a lot of chinese weapons. Would make sense as China, at least in part, contributed a great deal to Karate.

Something you may be interested in, did you know that Okinawa Te has a version of Kali? It is called a Tanbo in the Japanese fighting arts and two are Nitanbo. In the Old Ways the weapon is still taught, matter of fact it is one of the first weapons taught.

If you would like to know more I encourage you to study the Old Ways. There are some resources out there. Any of the Choyu motobu lineage stuff and even some of Taika Oyata's stuff may give you some insight into the answer to your question. If you learn more than I have about this please let me know as I will become your student. This has only scratched the surface, however.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can only give you my opinion based on what I was taught. Let's first look at Japanese Karate and ask what does it not have that most Okinawan systems have, once again I am coming from the Shuri reference as I have only a little training in the Naha line.

The only Okinawan Karate we have in my geographic region is Uechi Ryu and I have heard that it is of the Naha line and very different from the karate that I practice. Although it is different, would studying it help me better understand the kata that I am practicing...pinan 1-5, naihanchi 1-3, passai sho and dai, chinto, rohai, etc...

Torite, little joint locking skills are taught in Japanese Karate.

Kyusho, almost no vital point striking or manipulation is taught in the Japanese version of Karate.

I've been able to peice together some stuff from what my teacher learned, jujutsu, and kempo. However, I know that my knowledge is incomplete on these topics. If finding a dojo that teaches this stuff is not an option, what would you recommend?

Dachi, it is widely known that stances were modified or left out so that the Japanese could use what they were use to, in other words, sword stances.

Could you elaborate on the differences?

Power generation techniques, here I am getting into some of the higher level stuff, but a lot of the power generation of old Karate has been removed. Most Japanese styles of Karate are "power" karate. That utilize muscular strength.

Could you elaborate here, also?

Weapons, this subject is to long to list. Go to my site and see the weapons that are listed. These are Okinawan taught weapons from the old China/Tang Hand lineage. Watch a video with Uehara and notice that among his weapons there seems to be a lot of chinese weapons. Would make sense as China, at least in part, contributed a great deal to Karate.

Tang Soo Do does very little kobudo. We learn stick, knife, and cane. This stuff came from outside the system.

Something you may be interested in, did you know that Okinawa Te has a version of Kali? It is called a Tanbo in the Japanese fighting arts and two are Nitanbo. In the Old Ways the weapon is still taught, matter of fact it is one of the first weapons taught.

There is a large FMA community on Martial Talk that will be very interested in this. How close is tanbo and nitanbo to Kali?

If you would like to know more I encourage you to study the Old Ways. There are some resources out there. Any of the Choyu motobu lineage stuff and even some of Taika Oyata's stuff may give you some insight into the answer to your question. If you learn more than I have about this please let me know as I will become your student. This has only scratched the surface, however.

I do the best I can due to circumstance. Hopefully, I'll be able to find information and maintain a degree of integrity. Thanks for your anwers thus far...

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

It is very simular to FMA, matter of fact it is accepted that it was probably adapted from a group from that island as there was many from all over that ported in okinawa.

To teach you the differences in the stances it would take a book. Same for the power generation techniques. I know as I have been working on the book for a few years. It is much easier and more benificial to show you than try to tell you. Where are you located and maybe I can make a trip to see you one day.

If you are searching for good knowledge I would sugest joining a Traditional karate group or a group that allows cross training. Here I will suggest the ISOK or my Matsumura Shorin Ryu Karate Hozon Kai, or you could get great knowledge from Oyata's group as well. Lastly make friends that you can call and BS about Karate. I know lots of guys that have influenced me toreserch things I always thought were true based on the questions they asked.

 

[arnisador]

Uechi-ryu is quite different from other forms of Karate. It's very interesting, but very Chinese in flavour.

 

[Makalakumu]

Where are you located and maybe I can make a trip to see you one day.

I'm from Superior, Wisconsin...the land of the ice and snow...and I'd be happy to host you at my home and at my dojo.

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Uechi-ryu is quite different from other forms of Karate. It's very interesting, but very Chinese in flavour.

Does Uechi has throws and joint locks? Is there any Judo techniques that works well with the Uechi style? I know their main fighting stance is the Sanchin with open hands up front, this is a good stance to enter grappling range, am I right?

 

[arnisador]

It's grappling in the Okinawan sense--joint locks more than body throws. But as it's a relatively close-in style, I imagine Judo would fit well with it.

 

[Eric Daniel]

I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate.

I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes.

Also, I think some Judo techniques can be used as follow up to Karate techniques, such as: Osoto Gari, Kosoto Gari, Morote Gari, Tani Otoshi and Kutchiki Taoshi.

Comments please?

I think that some of the throws from judo can be incorporated into Karate. I heard that the founder of shotokan Karate (Gichin Funakoshi) had some throws in his curriculum but I am not totaly sure about that.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I think that some of the throws from judo can be incorporated into Karate. I heard that the founder of shotokan Karate (Gichin Funakoshi) had some throws in his curriculum but I am not totaly sure about that.

Yup, he sure has. I think those are taught in the Shotokai group (not sure about the JKA group). I think the description of the throws are in one of Funakoshi san's book. If my memory is correct, it includes Byobudodaoshi, Takiotoshi, Sakatsuchi, Tsubamegaeshi and some other throws.

I think sensei has the scans from the book. Want me to post it here?

 

[Eric Daniel]

Yes please if that is all right with everyone else.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Then I will execute a two-footed Tomoenage.

Well it's a bit hard to describe in words.. let me make a clip of it and get back to you.

Try this www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia/2_footed_tomoe_small.zip

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yes please if that is all right with everyone else.

Ok, hang on..

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I have found the scans from Funakoshi sensei's book which shows the throws. It's from Karatedo Kyohan. Anybody interested please email me [email protected]

 

[Autocrat]

Glad to see that others recognise that "most" martial arts are self contained.

If you look back at the origins of what we call the different MA's, and then the various styles within... you'll see dilution/specialisation/detraction/focus..... these are both good and bad for the arts/styles and their practioners!

Karate has almost all (if not all) the throws seen in the arts of Jiujitsu/Aikido/Judo (same family)..... then again, the same techniques can be seen muay thai, teakwondo etc.....

All different branches from the same tree!

All this talk about MMA is great.... yet in most of our training, we already have the moves there (even in british boxing, if you look back in time, there are certain moves no longer allowed, such as head buts, low kicks, elbow strikes and even some basic throws!).

Just think of it this way.... how long is your training session?
how much do you cover?
now try to think how much longer it will take you if you have to include the various "moves groups" ? Arm strikes/Leg Strikes/Throws/Grappling/Pressure points/Evasion/Defence.... now consider applying the various techniques to those groups, Snap/Thrust/Whip/Heavy Hand/Wave Form/Coil etc.....
You'd have to train four times a week @ 2 hours per session, just to get "most" of the basic..... and you'd probably have to wait a year before each grade!

So, my recomendation is this.... find a local club or two that practices a different art.... pop in and have a quiet word, explain that you are interested int training up on the things you feel your current style lacks, and wish to partake of their training. Any decent club will oblige. Forget grading, just concentrate on practicing the various bits you don't get the time/opportunity to at your regular club.

 

[Cirdan]

Some ju jutsu clubs have special classes that focus on throws (and other ones for ground work etc). These are great if you are after picking up some skill in that particular area.

Haven`t trained Ju jutsu very long, but my personal favorite is delivering an uraken uchi at my opponent`s head and immediatly attemt o uchi gari (breaking balance by pushing his neck instead of the shoulder)