Which should be first?

[ballen0351]

If you throw a matchbox in the air and punch at it, that matchbox will fly away. If you put that matchbox on the ground, even a 5 years old can step on and smash it (because it's not going anywhere). IMO, to throw your opponent down and then strike him will be more effective than exchange punches when are moving around with free legs.

Doesnt exactly work that way. when you punch a person they do fly away like a matchbox. If that were the case this would never happen

 

[skribs]

I never said one was superior to the other. I said one was simpler.

I recognize that both styles have their merits. A striking art with good footwork is generally better for multiple assailants, while a grappling art has advantages in one-on-one. In UFC, one would assume a grappler would have an advantage over a striker (because it's easier to reliably submit someone than to reliably knock them out) but I've seen the Jiu-Jitsu experts get TKO'd by boxers. They both have their place, and I don't believe either is superior to the other.

This thread asks which should be taught first. Since one is simpler than the other, if the goal is just to start training, I'd say start simple. If the goal is to have a certain skillset in a certain time, I say start complex and let the simple stuff seep in. I think striking is simpler than grappling, because it relies on only controlling one body (yours) and there are a smaller number of moves. Grappling techniques are different for each target (i.e. elbow, wrist, head, legs), whereas striking techniques are largely the same (i.e. a straight punch to the solar plexus isn't much different than a straight punch to nose). If you were to list all of the striking techniques out of an art like Muay Thai, Taekwondo, or Karate, I'm sure you'll have a much smaller list than the number of grappling techniques in Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, or Hapkido, and each technique will consist of a smaller number of steps.

 

[donald1]

What was the question?
Which should come first strikes or grapples

If that's the case either one is acceptable it depends how you choose to go its a neutral question because they both have pros and cons

 

[ballen0351]

I say learn both cant go wrong then. If you cant then pick the best quality school available to you and dont worry too much about the style.

 

[skribs]

The question was, as I read it: if you want to learn both grappling AND striking, but can only do one of them for now, which should be first?

The question is NOT: if you can only learn one or the other, which should you learn? (Which is a slightly different, but also heated discussion).
The question was also NOT: should I learn both grappling and striking at the same time? (Which is an easy-to-answer but hard-to-follow-the-answer-of question).

 

[Touch Of Death]

Depends on what they want to focus on. Both have merits and detractions. I would lean towards striking personally but, that is personal preference.

No it isn't. Striking should be first because you can't expect a kid or female, of just about any age, to grapple their way out of trouble. Shock, awe, and escape is their only option. Period.

 

[ballen0351]

No it isn't. Striking should be first because you can't expect a kid or female, of just about any age, to grapple their way out of trouble. Shock, awe, and escape is their only option. Period.

Im a big strike arts guy myself but I disagree with this as well. Your not going to be able to teach a kid to strike or grapple against well enough to get out of trouble against an adult. No matter how much skill you have there comes a point where size and strength will overpower perfect technique.
There is no right answer to this question. Other then it depends on where you live if the local grappling arts school sucks and there is a good striking art school then pick striking if the schools are flipped then take grappling.

 

[SENC-33]

Think about it this way......

You learn to grapple first. You get into a scuffle early in your training, go to the ground and then what? Your chances of pulling off a joint lock or effective choke that can END THE CONFRONTATION are almost nil.

I can teach a common idiot to throw a pre-emptive knockout strike in one evening.

 

[lklawson]

No it isn't. Striking should be first because you can't expect a kid or female, of just about any age, to grapple their way out of trouble. Shock, awe, and escape is their only option. Period.

Even if we assume that grappling is less "natural" than striking (which I contest), superior grappling skills are far more likely to give a much smaller and much weaker person a good chance of escaping without injury than superior striking skills.

Said as both a striker and a grappler, at my current "still have 5 vanity pounds to lose" 160 lbs (iow, I am that "smaller" person. I am speaking from experience here).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Think about it this way......

You learn to grapple first. You get into a scuffle early in your training, go to the ground and then what? Your chances of pulling off a joint lock or effective choke that can END THE CONFRONTATION are almost nil.

Your assumptions are false. The goal is not necessarily to "pull of a joint lock or effective choke." While both are actually pretty easy (I was snagging "effective chokes" against someone who had way more than 100 lbs on me just last night), the goal is to protect yourself and escape, if possible. You don't need to lock your choke. A hold down is more than sufficient to gain "control" over the situation and those are even easier.

I can teach a common idiot to throw a pre-emptive knockout strike in one evening.

I can teach the same person 3 effective, simple throws in the same time and it wouldn't have to be a sucker punch.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No matter how much skill you have there comes a point where size and strength will overpower perfect technique.

And the same goes for striking.

A few decades ago, I swiped a saying from a friend: "The bigger they are... the harder they hit!"

There is no right answer to this question. Other then it depends on where you live if the local grappling arts school sucks and there is a good striking art school then pick striking if the schools are flipped then take grappling.

Which is a completely fair position to take.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[ballen0351]

And the same goes for striking.

A few decades ago, I swiped a sayingit friend: "The bigger they are... the harder they hit!"

Correct I said that in another post.
However In my opinion when at a much bigger size and strength disadvantage I'd rather stay on my feet and look for the first chance I get to run. Quick kick to the knee and bolt.

Which is a completely fair position to take.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

its the only fair answer since the grapple vs strike debate is all opinion

 

[SENC-33]

Your assumptions are false. The goal is not necessarily to "pull of a joint lock or effective choke." While both are actually pretty easy (I was snagging "effective chokes" against someone who had way more than 100 lbs on me just last night), the goal is to protect yourself and escape, if possible. You don't need to lock your choke. A hold down is more than sufficient to gain "control" over the situation and those are even easier.

I can teach the same person 3 effective, simple throws in the same time and it wouldn't have to be a sucker punch.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

You threw effective chokes last night on somebody who knows you, who knows you mean him no harm and doesn't actually feel threatened by you. I mean no offense so please don't take it as such but I would take your 1 night rookie challenge any day of the week (Pre-emptive knockout strike versus a simple throw)

 

[Touch Of Death]

You threw effective chokes last night on somebody who knows you, who knows you mean him no harm and doesn't actually feel threatened by you. I mean no offense so please don't take it as such but I would take your 1 night rookie challenge any day of the week (Pre-emptive knockout strike versus a simple throw)

So, you want to teach a thirteen year old girl to throw, before you teach her stomping on the toes with her heel?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, you want to teach a thirteen year old girl to throw, before you teach her stomping on the toes with her heel?

I would suggest you teach it the same day; so, cooler heads can make the right choice.
Sean

 

[lklawson]

So, you want to teach a thirteen year old girl to throw, before you teach her stomping on the toes with her heel?

Honestly?

Honestly, I'd teacher to stab and slash with a knife first.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled "striking vs. grappling" debate.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

You threw effective chokes last night on somebody who knows you, who knows you mean him no harm and doesn't actually feel threatened by you. I mean no offense so please don't take it as such but I would take your 1 night rookie challenge any day of the week (Pre-emptive knockout strike versus a simple throw)

Except for the fact that he was trying damn hard to not be choked and to return the favor (plus interest) on top of looking for joint locks and hold downs.

That was where he was able to finally shine. He was able to use his superior mass and get a really decent hold down. I choked him 3 times and he got 2 hold downs. It's way easier than you seem to think.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[SENC-33]

Except for the fact that he was trying damn hard to not be choked and to return the favor (plus interest) on top of looking for joint locks and hold downs.

That was where he was able to finally shine. He was able to use his superior mass and get a really decent hold down. I choked him 3 times and he got 2 hold downs. It's way easier than you seem to think.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm not suggesting chokes are difficult to do but anybody you attempt to choke in a real life scenario is gonna be a tad less friendly to you than a training partner and he might consider your throat, eyes or balls fair game.

 

[lklawson]

I'm not suggesting chokes are difficult to do but anybody you attempt to choke in a real life scenario is gonna be a tad less friendly to you than a training partner and he might consider your throat, eyes or balls fair game.

None of which were anything but a remote possibility for him to access at the time.

Honestly, I'm a huge striking fan and a massive advocate for old school boxing, but I really get tired of hearing the EMFG argument. It simply doesn't work. If I'm in a good enough position to effectively choke or armbar, then I'm in a good enough position to prevent EMFG or even do it myself, and that's without the obvious fact that being choked unconscious or having your joint hyper-extended is more than a tad bit distracting to start with. When BJJers say "Position before Submission," this is part of what they're talking about.

Sorry, but no. Your suggestion that the choke only worked because my training partner was too nice to EMFG me is, honestly laughable.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[SENC-33]

None of which were anything but a remote possibility for him to access at the time.

Honestly, I'm a huge striking fan and a massive advocate for old school boxing, but I really get tired of hearing the EMFG argument. It simply doesn't work. If I'm in a good enough position to effectively choke or armbar, then I'm in a good enough position to prevent EMFG or even do it myself, and that's without the obvious fact that being choked unconscious or having your joint hyper-extended is more than a tad bit distracting to start with. When BJJers say "Position before Submission," this is part of what they're talking about.

Sorry, but no. Your suggestion that the choke only worked because my training partner was too nice to EMFG me is, honestly laughable.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If you and I are face to face in a confrontation it takes me but a split second to strike one of several vital areas that will either end the confrontation or disorient you before I can follow with another split second strike. You will struggle mightily to get anybody in an effective type of choke due to the fact that you have to actually get into position in the first place.