Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?

[Flying Crane]

I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.

I meant to comment on this in my prior post, but forgot.

I think being a deep thinker in one's art is not necessarily the same as being spiritual. I would hope that everyone thinks deeply, even meditatively, about the art that they practice. But I just don't see this as spiritual.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First I do not think we are that far apart on this issue, I think it has come down to something I try to avoid "arguments over semantics" over one word "Spirituality"

Also depending on where your instructor was trained and by whom he or she has been trained by, this whole spirituality issue may be a non-issue to them. I have also been attempting to avoid this statement, but Western religions tend to be exclusive where eastern religions tend to be inclusive.

The west sees a major separation from religion and all else where the east does not. So if you are looking for Spirituality (by your definition, if I understand it correctly, not my definition) it may be because as far as that teacher is concerned there is no need to discuss it separate from martial arts, they are the same thing.

Tai Chi is undoubtedly the exception to the rule. Most schools I have been a part of shy away from spirituality because instructors simply wouldn't know where to begin. This failure to even broach the subject has been inherent in their own training and probably their instructor's before them. My point is that somewhere in the history of most arts, the founder's verve for the "holistic" art [being physical AND spiritual] has either been willfully dumped or merely not understood. From then on, the focus has been on training us to be punching machines and not thinking fighters. As I say, Tai Chi is a notable exception to this lack of spiritual aspects.

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make about Tai Chi, it also could be I was not clear, or maybe I'm missing your point. I have never had a discussion of spirituality with any of my teachers. I have however begun referring to Tai Chi as the "Tai Chi dance and crystal show". The number of people coming to class that want to discuss new age ideas, Christianity and those misunderstanding or fearing any sort of Eastern philosophy are alarming and killing the art.

They see signs of respect as religious teachings, and they are nothing but signs of respect.

Many do not know that Tai Chi origins are Taoist, (and I suppose if this is a spiritual discussion my teachers have said that). I believe this is where the problem occurs with all martial arts. The people going to the class lack the understanding of it, and have their own belief system before they get there. And instead of trying to understand the martial art and its philosophy, they attempt to make the martial art fit their beliefs.

Many of these people do not know Tai Chi is a martial art and absolutely refuse to accept is as such. Most unfortunately there are more of them than Martial artists in Tai Chi so many Tai Chi teachers give in to the pressure and stop teaching martial arts. This, by the way, is happening in China as well, but without the spiritual bits, they just want to relax and exercise.

Most unfortunately today you will find more people teaching Tai Chi as more of a moving yoga than as a martial art.

As for your definition of spirituallity, when I train very hard, and for internal MA this involves the form, application and Qi Gong training I can get a rather strong sense of what is around me and of myself. I, as I imagine is obvious by now, do not call this spirituallity. I tend to follow 2 precepts here, (1) once you actually focus on it or name it, you loose it. (2) And, What is, is.

No, I'm not referring to you specifically, I'm simply attempting to open the discussion as wide as I can.

Nor was I specifically referring to you, although I did use the word “you". I was referring to anyone that does this.

Well, I've never even traveled to Shaolin and you know, for me, it's a very pessimistic and lowly attitude to think that [cf. my earlier Mr. Miyagi point] that us non-icons such as the ones you have mentioned, could never reach a level of personal enlightenment. I for one, think I'm well on the path to my own enlightment and self-knowledge through my art. And good luck to me!

I am not telling you enlightenment is not possible for you, me, or anyone. I am saying that many who claim it don't have it. And that to attain enlightenment is a very very difficult path to follow and most of us are not able to get there (to many demands on us in our day to day lives).

But then again I suspect we are running smack into another semantics issue and I do not like arguing semantics.

 

[Xue Sheng]

is that the discipline necessary to effectively and dilligently practice the art can be useful in the study, meditation, and prayers of a practicing Buddhist. I just couldn't find much beyond that.

As was Shaolin Kung Fu I believe.

I think there is a lot of truth in the notion that spirituality is forced on the martial arts thru an inappropriate western perspective, and it just doesn't fit the way we want it to. We try to cram a square peg into a round hole.

Exactly, this is what I was trying to say in 10,000 words or less and you got it in less than 50.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)

Respects!

Did I say unlimited? *scroll scroll*

 

[MartialIntent]

I meant to comment on this in my prior post, but forgot.

I think being a deep thinker in one's art is not necessarily the same as being spiritual. I would hope that everyone thinks deeply, even meditatively, about the art that they practice. But I just don't see this as spiritual.

Many thanks for your insight! My experience has been a diagonal opposite to yours in that I seldom encounter "everyday" students who think deeply about their art. And the reason? Because no one has ever suggested to them that their art is anything more than a vehicle for physical talents.

I think this is a tragedy for the art because in seeing it in such one-dimensional terms, practitioners are failing to reap the full harvest of their dedicated efforts.

I'm not suggesting that thinking deeply equates to spirituality, what I'm getting at is that thinking about how you practise your art, what you can do within your art and how you act and react by diligent practise of your art can point you towards your own personal spirituality ie. who you are as a an individual.

I really am desperately trying to get away from this notion that spirituality and religion are somehow intertwined. I fully understand for many that is the case but it in NO WAY necessarily needs to be the case.

I have not one iota of religion in me [in the organised, orthodox, indoctrinated sense]. But yet I feel that over the years, I have at least reaching the foothills of the mountain of spirituality.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

The west sees a major separation from religion and all else where the east does not. So if you are looking for Spirituality (by your definition, if I understand it correctly, not my definition) it may be because as far as that teacher is concerned there is no need to discuss it separate from martial arts, they are the same thing.

I don't think the inplication [at least here in the UK] is that the very practise of the martial art is inclusive of the spiritual aspects. I think the onus is always on the student to further their own knowledge independently. In my experience, it is not the case that the instructor treats understanding of the spiritual side of the art as a given. The reality is more like sweeping it under the dojo mats and leaving those practitioners who are interested in the "thinking" side of the art to their own devices. For many schools, a visitor would be hard-pushed to see ANY indication of a spiritual side to an art.

Many do not know that Tai Chi origins are Taoist, (and I suppose if this is a spiritual discussion my teachers have said that). I believe this is where the problem occurs with all martial arts. The people going to the class lack the understanding of it, and have their own belief system before they get there. And instead of trying to understand the martial art and its philosophy, they attempt to make the martial art fit their beliefs.

This is the crux of the problem right here. Whilst I understand that Tai Chi has an orthodox religious background borne out of Taoist traditions [and there are many, many others with a similar religious heritage] I think this is entirely missing my point. I've made that point above but to reiterate, religion and the sort of personal enlightenment / spirituality that I'm talking about are NOT the same thing at all. And while for many, religion is an inherent part of their martial spirituality, there is NO REQUIREMENT for it to be so.

And this comes back to an earlier point - that of forcing ones religious viewpoint on a student - which I think is completely inexcusable.

No, what I'm advocating is more of a discussion on how focussed, disciplined practise of ones art can give one a greater understanding of oneself, ones nature, ones purpose.

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't think the inplication [at least here in the UK] is that the very practise of the martial art is inclusive of the spiritual aspects. I think the onus is always on the student to further their own knowledge independently. In my experience, it is not the case that the instructor treats understanding of the spiritual side of the art as a given. The reality is more like sweeping it under the dojo mats and leaving those practitioners who are interested in the "thinking" side of the art to their own devices. For many schools, a visitor would be hard-pushed to see ANY indication of a spiritual side to an art.


This is the crux of the problem right here. Whilst I understand that Tai Chi has an orthodox religious background borne out of Taoist traditions [and there are many, many others with a similar religious heritage] I think this is entirely missing my point. I've made that point above but to reiterate, religion and the sort of personal enlightenment / spirituality that I'm talking about are NOT the same thing at all. And while for many, religion is an inherent part of their martial spirituality, there is NO REQUIREMENT for it to be so.

And this comes back to an earlier point - that of forcing ones religious viewpoint on a student - which I think is completely inexcusable.

No, what I'm advocating is more of a discussion on how focussed, disciplined practise of ones art can give one a greater understanding of oneself, ones nature, ones purpose.

Respects!

First as I previously stated it depends on where your teacher was trained an who he/she was trained by. All of my teachers have come from China, Korea or were trained in Japan. Spirituality, by the definition I think you are using, is not discussed because it is taken for granted as being the same thing as training martial arts. And to be honest at this point, I have to say, I am really not sure what your definition is or what you are looking for. I thought I had it, but apparently I do not.

You have also demonstrated the very miss understanding of the problem I am talking about in reference to Tai Chi. Tai Chi coming from a Taoist as do other Martial Arts. They do not come from a the Taoist Religion. Taoism was a philosophy long before it was a religion as were most Eastern Religions. There are no Taoist rituals in any classical Chinese martial art that came from Taoism, as far as I know. But I can see a lot of parallels to Taoist Philosophy. I have studied a lot of Taoist Philosophy in order to better understand Tai Chi, but I have never felt it was the duty of my Sifu to teach me any of it.

And for that matter Shaolin which has a root in Chan Buddhism has no Buddhist rituals in it either. Shaolin martial arts were made to assist the monk in strengthening his body so he could endure the long hour of mediation for spiritual development. Not spiritual development that comes from the study of Shaolin Kung fu.

This is the miss understanding of the west that causes the problems that currently exist in Martial Arts. Eastern martial arts are based on philosophy NOT religion. You study Aikido; if your teacher does not give you what you are looking for find another teacher. From what I understand about Aikido, Ki development is part of it and that, to me, might be the spirituality you are looking for.

I have generally been very impressed by the sense of calm I get from most Aikido people I have meant. There have been a few that I did not get that from and upon further investigation I found their teacher was lacking. But that is for them to discover, not for me to tell them.

My first Tai Chi Teacher knew only form and did not know anything of the internal side, so I found another teacher. My second teacher, although very knowledgeable was simply to far away and I luckily found my third teacher who is also very knowledgeable. However my third teacher has recently begun to given in to the pressure of the “Tai Chi Health dance and crystal show” people and appears to be no longer training any of the martial aspect. The new people are big on Qi Gong, Health and Pseudo-Spirituality. So I will be going back to my second teacher, and starting from the beginning again (his lineage is different within the same family style), and looking for a 4th teacher in China ( I am there once a year). I have been speaking only of Tai Chi; I have done and am doing the same thing for Xingyi.

If your teacher does not give you what you are looking for it is not the fault of the teacher if you stay. Leave, find another teacher, if there are no other teachers of your art near you, maybe you should look for another art to pursue. Or look to another teacher in another place. If you have a good base I believe it is better to meet with a very good teacher once or twice a year than a bad teacher everyday.

If you study only aikido, and maybe you study more, you cannot judge all martial arts lack of what you are calling spirituality. I have meant and talked to a few Chinese masters that are incredibly talented and very good at what they do, I am willing to bet if you ask them about whatever it is you are referring to as spirituality they would discuss it with you, but they feel no need to teach it to you, they teach you martial arts, the rest comes from the students commitment to that art. I believe the same would apply to any well trained Martial arts teacher.

 

[MartialIntent]

If your teacher does not give you what you are looking for it is not the fault of the teacher if you stay. Leave, find another teacher,

Why should I have left and find another teacher? That's a quitting attitude; a last resort. I respect all my previous teachers for the knowledge and experience they have bestowed upon me and though it may be conceit, I feel I brought something to them [as my students bring something to me]. But by the same token I also wish for more; although I have many years of experience I always desire more knowledge.

As an analogy, if I eat at a my favorite classy restaurant and they forget my desert, do I walk out? If I attend a nice bar and they are not familiar with a certain cocktail, do I walk away? Likewise, if a student suggests to a teacher that the teacher might consider discussion / direction / mentoring on a certain subject, you're telling me you would recommend the teacher advise the student to seek another school? Hmmmm...

If you study only aikido, and maybe you study more, you cannot judge all martial arts lack of what you are calling spirituality.

Sir, I neither judge nor cast aspersions on any particular arts [let alone ALL of them]. I respect ALL arts as none are without merit so kindly do not paraphrase my post in that way. I am simply commenting on my personal observation from my own experience with various arts and my extensive travels around various schools, that the spirituality is lacking.

Thank you for your input though alas my impression from the tone of your posts is that we cannot even agree to disagree... This would be unfortunate.

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why should I have left and find another teacher? That's a quitting attitude; a last resort. I respect all my previous teachers for the knowledge and experience they have bestowed upon me and though it may be conceit, I feel I brought something to them [as my students bring something to me]. But by the same token I also wish for more; although I have many years of experience I always desire more knowledge.

As an analogy, if I eat at a my favorite classy restaurant and they forget my desert, do I walk out? If I attend a nice bar and they are not familiar with a certain cocktail, do I walk away? Likewise, if a student suggests to a teacher that the teacher might consider discussion / direction / mentoring on a certain subject, you're telling me you would recommend the teacher advise the student to seek another school? Hmmmm... !

I am not suggesting quitting, unless you are unhappy, which I get the impression you are. If you are happy with your present teacher then what is the spiritually issue about?

Interesting analogy, but what I am saying and what I think was said by you before was that martial arts teachers are not willing to discuss spirituality.

As for your analogy it would be more correct, based on what I am saying, and what I think you are saying about the lack of spirituality to put it this way.

If I eat at my favorite classy restaurant and they refuse to give me my desert, do I walk out? Yes

If I attend a nice bar and they do not give me the cocktail I am looking for do I walk away? Yes

As for the quitter attitude I think you may have accused me of having. I still feel that if I am going to a teacher that cannot teach me, why go to that teacher. If I am going to a teacher that was originally staying true to that art but has changed to something other than what is true in order to gain more students and make money and ignore his senior students to do so. And who has after repeated conversations says he was aware of this and would change and at every change it gets worse. And after not being taught anything after 2 years. Why would I stay and stagnate, forget what I have been taught in order to assist teaching people in what I believe is the exact thing that is killing the art?

Leaving this teacher is not easy, please do not make light of it and label me a quitter. I owe a lot to my sifu and I have tried time and time again to over look the changes and try to help and get thing back to something close to what they use to be. Where there were once 7 senior students there are now 3. I am not alone in my thoughts on this issue.

Sir, I neither judge nor cast aspersions on any particular arts [let alone ALL of them]. I respect ALL arts as none are without merit so kindly do not paraphrase my post in that way. I am simply commenting on my personal observation from my own experience with various arts and my extensive travels around various schools, that the spirituality is lacking.

Thank you for your input though alas my impression from the tone of your posts is that we cannot even agree to disagree... This would be unfortunate.

Respects!

I did not intend to paraphrase I was attempting to understand and respond.

And if that is an issue we are both guilty of things here. You are also picking a choosing what to respond to, but I do not make issue of it.

As for the tone of my posts, there is no tone, I am not angry, I am not upset; I am responding, discussing and attempting to understand. However I am not, from what I can tell, agreeing with you and possibly that is the problem.

I however do not see this as a confrontation nor, as I previously posted, do I truly think we are that far off from agreeing, I still think it is a semantics issue.

I would like to hear what you are defining spirituality as; it is possible that I simply do not use the word in the same way.

Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only lip service to the spiritual aspects of their art.
Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but *all* martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.

I know spirituality is an innately personal thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]

Upon rereading what you originally said I can see that you did not reference all schools but only the schools you have visited. And I apologize for the “paraphrase” that has upset you.

But I got the impression from your statements in your previous posts that you were unhappy with the fact that your teacher or for that matter many teachers did not discuss spirituality. And if a teacher is not giving you what you need then why would one stay with that teacher?

I will, if you desire remove myself from this post.

 

[MartialIntent]

I will, if you desire remove myself from this post.

Not at all! Sir, although we differ, your viewpoints are welcome [and insightful from the world of Tai Chi]. Evidently though, my aptitude for translating an ethereal concept into the nuts and bolts is failing me!

Good luck and respects!

 

[TigerWoman]

Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
Sean

I disagree with that last sentence. I think some things take alot of courage particularly when to make such a stand results in negative consequences to you and the ones you love. It is also the test of integrity whether you have that courage to do the right thing. I think everyone knows what is the right thing, our conscience tells us. Maybe that is God telling us through our conscience. Easy tests of integrity are like saying yes, I took the last donut. Hard is telling the truth in support of a co-worker who has a family and needs the job, against the wishes of a relative boss, which results eventually in the relative's dismissal. Negative results: resigned the job and forever out of that part of the family no matter how Christian they espouse to be. You just have to pick your battles carefully. I battled my instructor/master and its been nothing but a headache for me, still. TW

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others].

And what of those arts that do not profess spirituality or some thing like it?

Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only lip service to the spiritual aspects of their art.

If the art has none, from the beginning, does that make it less so?

Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but *all* martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.

I can self enlightenment, for one can find peace and enjoyment in the motions of the art. One can use the skills and dedication to help thier life in development. Why must it be Spirituality?

I know spirituality is an innately personal thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]

As you stated spirituality is a personal thing or issue. Could it not be jsut that Personal? Could you not be expected to search this on your own? This way you do not force students to leave your school or place of study, becuase they may have a difference of opinion in spirituality.

I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?

Respects!

Balintawak a FMA has zero Spirituality. It can have self-enlightenment as I mentioned above, as well as those who struggle to learn and continue when they have problems.

 

[MartialIntent]

And what of those arts that do not profess spirituality or some thing like it?

Firstly, thank you for your input! I'd say good luck to those arts that don't profess a spiritual side. Every art is different, every art is equally valid. And how a school practises their variant of the art is for them alone. I have no issue with that. No, my concern is with those arts who are more than happy to have "Spirituality Practised Here" as a <META> tag on their websites or in their mission statements but when it comes to walking the walk as it were, seem a little less vociferous and a little more reticent about what sort of spiritual mentoring / direction they might provide to those students who express an interest.

I'd cite two methods to clarify a school's position in respect of their spiritual sides - 1). Disavow spirituality altogether and stake no claim in respect of it's practise... At least that is honest, upfront and potential and existing students know what to expect and that independent study will be necessary if they wish to discover more. Or 2). Follow through on the spirituality claim: educate, research, gently direct and mentor students who are interested in furthering their knowledge and practise of the spiritual aspects of the art.

This leads me to another earlier point. I wouldn't necessarily be as black-and-white about saying a school's art does or does not have a spiritual side [I think it's more of a series of greys] as I truly feel that ALL arts and all schools have a capacity which allow ANY of their practitioners to become spiritually aware, more self-knowledgeable and yes, enlightened through practise and application of purely the physical side.

I believe there's a subconscious image many of us have of the only truly spiritual martial artist being that fellow who stands atop the mountain breathing in rays of sun through the cap of his head - or - the berry-eating nomad [Kane in Kung Fu]. And whilst these practices may certainly inspire one to be spiritual at that level, it's not what we are in the west at least for the most part.

No, I think diligent physical practise by us grass-roots martial artists is sufficient if done in the spirit of self-discovery to uncover a personal enlightment and deeper awareness of the art, why we practise it, who we are as practitioners and what we can do within the framework of our art. This is my personal definition of spirituality and enlightment.

for one can find peace and enjoyment in the motions of the art. One can use the skills and dedication to help thier life in development. Why must it be Spirituality?

Firstly, this is beautifully stated! Thank you! Being such a personal set of feelings, spirituality is entirely subject to interpretation and consequently has many manifestations. And of course there is no requirement whatsoever for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so. My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.

I hope this makes a modicum of sense.

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not at all! Sir, although we differ, your viewpoints are welcome [and insightful from the world of Tai Chi]. Evidently though, my aptitude for translating an ethereal concept into the nuts and bolts is failing me!
Good luck and respects!

You are an honorable person, respects to you as well.

No, my concern is with those arts who are more than happy to have "Spirituality Practised Here" as a <META> tag on their websites or in their mission statements but when it comes to walking the walk as it were, seem a little less vociferous and a little more reticent about what sort of spiritual mentoring / direction they might provide to those students who express an interest.

This is dishonest advertising the same as a flashing sign to gain ones attention, or in this case to gain more students. And in this case I would have to agree with you

I'd cite two methods to clarify a school's position in respect of their spiritual sides - 1). Disavow spirituality altogether and stake no claim in respect of it's practise... At least that is honest, upfront and potential and existing students know what to expect and that independent study will be necessary if they wish to discover more. Or 2). Follow through on the spirituality claim: educate, research, gently direct and mentor students who are interested in furthering their knowledge and practise of the spiritual aspects of the art.

I would still have to say here that choice 1 is the more honest of the 2. I still do not feel it is up to the teacher of any style to teach "Spirituality". Plus I still maintain that many traditional Martial arts teacher simply do not see the 2 as different things. They train you martial arts and it is though that training that you gain the deeper understanding. It is still in my opinion up to the student

I believe there's a subconscious image many of us have of the only truly spiritual martial artist being that fellow who stands atop the mountain breathing in rays of sun through the cap of his head - or - the berry-eating nomad [Kane in Kung Fu]. And whilst these practices may certainly inspire one to be spiritual at that level, it's not what we are in the west at least for the most part.

I know many of the new age Tai Chi people think this. I have seen them revere a teacher in a way I think can be a bit scary. This is just another area where I have a problem with the whole spiritual/religious thing in martial arts.

And as a side note, I have talked with many Chinese people, Chinese martial artists and I have even heard a Shaolin Monk speak and none of them talk like David Carradine (Kane) in Kung fu.

But you are correct this is the perception many people apparently have of martial arts today. Which is also another area that I think their brand of spirituality is destroying many a martial art today.

No, I think diligent physical practice by us grass-roots martial artists is sufficient if done in the spirit of self-discovery to uncover a personal enlightenment and deeper awareness of the art, why we practice it, which we are as practitioners and what we can do within the framework of our art. This is my personal definition of spirituality and enlightment.

Is this "The nuts and bolts"?

This I can agree with, but I would not call it spirituality, I just call understanding.

A short story; I have a friend who has studied Aikido and Karate. He is very good at his chosen martial arts, he is, for all intensive purposes the one of the best at Karate I have ever seen. But he has stagnated and has stopped training all together, he is unable to go further or advance in anyway. I have attributed this to the fact that he absolutely refuses to do any internal work at all. No stance training, no Qi, or in his case, Ki training. He absolutely refuses to believe it can help in any way....He equates this to religion and he is fairly anti-religious.

If for no other reason the internal would help him relax and thereby potentially give him the improvement that he is searching for. And despite my attempts to show this is not religious, he refuses to change his position. As far as I can tell he no longer trains any martial arts at all, and based on his skill up to this point, I can say this is a great loss to martial arts in general. OK it was a long story.

And of course there is no requirement whatsoever for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so.

Thank You, I think we are reaching agreement here. Or at least the agree to disagree stage if you like.

My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.

I truly have no problem with this, I fully believe: if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt others than great.

If you call it a lift and I call it an elevator, big deal. You call it spirituality and I call it understanding, it makes no difference.

My problem begins with those that force their brand of religion on a martial art where either none exists or they do not understand what it already there (and it is not religion) or fear what they perceive to be a "Eastern" "non-Christian" type of training that of course must be evil, it is non-Christian. When in reality what they fear is not there in the first place.

And with Tai Chi, Qi Gong and I am beginning to fear Bagua might be next. The influx of the New age religious (Tai Chi dance and crystal show) set that are for all intensive purposes destroying the martial arts as we know them. And by the way I have talked with some people here that are in Aikido that would fall into the same group.

However, I am not saying nor do I not consider you one of these people. But this is why I have such a problem with the word spirituality being applied to martial arts.

 

[ed-swckf]

Do you find though, if you *did* chose to dig deeper into the spiritual side of your art, that there'd be any help at your school to do so? I know in my experience that's seldom the case.

I'm interested to know!

Well what help could they offer, aside from being welcoming of a personal choice someone makes? I mean to say that any help that is offered would be equal to the help offered to those who choose not to pursue the spiritual side. And people have different takes on sprituality and so apart from being welcoming to people of different spititual beliefs to do much more would become inpractical.

And when you look at the alleged history of my art it has pretty much been passed on without a huge amount of spiritual expression and it simply has roots in buddhism. Many people have incorperated taoism, buddhism and confucianism into the thinking behind wing chun and now as the art has spread into the western world people are associating christianity and other western beliefs with it. Personally i would prefer not to look into christianity but as time goes on people from all faiths and spiritual backgrounds will come into contact with wing chun and maybe their personal approach to wing chun will incorperate some of their personal faith just as what has already come to pass. And so the spiritual side of it will remain a personal choice and the goal of teaching the art is not to concentrate one particular spiritual path but to be open to all walks of life.

The best pollicy is to offer an open freindly environment in which to learn the art from someone who knows their stuff. I feel that if you wished to learn more about spirituality you should also ensure you go learn from someone who knows their stuff or travel your own path rather than expect spiritual teaching from your teacher.

All that said my teacher is always there to offer advice and is very helpful in other matters that aren't directly wing chun related, if you have a problem or issue he will help and he will also give you a lot of oppertunity in helping you think for yourself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally i would prefer not to look into christianity but as time goes on people from all faiths and spiritual backgrounds will come into contact with wing chun and maybe their personal approach to wing chun will incorperate some of their personal faith just as what has already come to pass.

Just to go off the subject slightly for one post.

One of the scariest martial arts schools I have seen in recent years was a Christian Wing Chun School, the whole thing had the feel of a cult. It has now changed to a Christian pseudo-police combat training school which has absolutely no police as members.

Ok I'm done.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Firstly, this is beautifully stated! Thank you! Being such a personal set of feelings, spirituality is entirely subject to interpretation and consequently has many manifestations. And of course there is no requirement whatsoever for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so. My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.

I hope this makes a modicum of sense.

Respects!

Now you have me worried or scared because I never state anything beautifully.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[MartialIntent]

I would still have to say here that choice 1 is the more honest of the 2. I still do not feel it is up to the teacher of any style to teach "Spirituality". Plus I still maintain that many traditional Martial arts teacher simply do not see the 2 as different things. They train you martial arts and it is though that training that you gain the deeper understanding. It is still in my opinion up to the student

Actually, now that I consider your meaning, I think we may actually be arriving at a common conclusion from different angles.

Firstly, you are certainly correct insofar as NO ONE can *teach* an individual spirituality except themselves. To *teach* spirituality is a contradiction in terms. I've attempted not to use the word teach [though I may have been remiss]. But how I've tried to explain that instead is that students can be directed or mentored - should they so wish - in at least seeing that what they do as they progress through their training is actually spirituality [again my personal definition].

And it's spirituality because it provides insight into our own workings, our own motivations and our own strengths and limits. This for me is personal enlightenment and it can be achieved through purely physical practise and application of the art.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

And when you look at the alleged history of my art it has pretty much been passed on without a huge amount of spiritual expression and it simply has roots in buddhism. Many people have incorperated taoism, buddhism and confucianism into the thinking behind wing chun and now as the art has spread into the western world people are associating christianity and other western beliefs with it.

I agree, there's too much confusion between orthodox religions and personal spirituality in the arts. And I know of many students who seek a deeper understanding of spirituality in their art and yet have no desire for communion with any of the major religions. This is my own position also.

And so the spiritual side of it will remain a personal choice and the goal of teaching the art is not to concentrate one particular spiritual path but to be open to all walks of life.

Exactly. Spirituality is system of beliefs that is an incredibly personal experience. Each of us has our own spirituality and each is as beautiful as the other in a way unique to the practitioner. We should be entirely at liberty to walk whichever spiritual path we see fit [or none at all for that matter]. By the same token though, many new or inexperienced students *do* have an enthusiasm to develop this aspect of the art but yet have no point of reference because of schools' reluctance to raise the issue within the practise or syllabus or simply because of instructors' inexperience of mentoring the subject.

The best pollicy is to offer an open freindly environment in which to learn the art from someone who knows their stuff. I feel that if you wished to learn more about spirituality you should also ensure you go learn from someone who knows their stuff or travel your own path rather than expect spiritual teaching from your teacher.

I would be hoping that that person who "knows their stuff" would be my instructor. This is my point, that those who do seek a greater understanding of spirituality in their art are forced off onto the internet or somewhere out of the school to carry on their research independently because in many cases schools even feel it would be "inappropriate" to raise the subject within the confines of the dojo. This for me is unfortunate. There's room for change though.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Now you have me worried or scared because I never state anything beautifully.

Thank you for the reply.

I mean, you've hit the nail on the head right there. I think there's a spirituality in all of us whether we choose to name it that or not. And of course our personal spirituality is a beautiful thing springing from which is much creativity. My sense is that often we simply don't have the time, inclination or more pertinently, encouragement to think on it as part of our art. For all that - it's still there within us!

But yeah, the point that you made so well is that one just practises one's art and simply enjoys the physicality of it and to that end, it really matters not whether we see that as spirituality, tap the gong and make a bid hoo-hah about it. But my point is that for those who wish to further develop that "spirituality" and sense of personal enlightenment achieved through their martial aptitudes, often there's nowhere to turn for help or advice. Schools are often entirely focussed on the nitty gritty of techniques that will help us escape a wrist lock while missing the point that while we're engaged in that pursuit, we may actually be learning about ourselves, our adaptability, our quick-thinking, our coordination, our courage, our respect and a myriad other things that point us on the path to spirituality and enlightment.

Respects!