Where are all the fighters?

[yak sao]

As some of you know, I teach a small group of 12 or so from my home.
Don't get me wrong, I love the group of guys I teach, but by and large, they're not fighters.
They range in age from 19-52, with the majority of them in their 40's, which means they're family men with all the trappings, wife, kids, jobs/ careers, etc.
The trouble is I can't keep them consistant. Birthday parties, little league, overtime, "my wife wants me to stay home", you know all the reasons. And for the most part, they are reasons, not excuses. I know people have lives and have ( and want) to do those things.
The thing is, most of them don't train at home like they should...not really.
Where are the guys who are ate up with it? Who are hungry to learn and come to class every time the door's open. Who train their butts off outside of class, developing their skills and their bodies, getting with buddies every chance they can to cross hands. That's what I did...that's what I still do.
Where are these guys?
Where are the fighters?

 

[WC_lun]

I was like that in my 20's. then life happened and I slowly came to realize that while martial arts are part of who i am, there's more to life. I also came to appreciate real martial arts a lot more, so I was able to recognize when the oppurtunity came up to train with a really skilled sifu. In my 20's. I'd never have recognized that. I guess what I'm saying is, don't be too bummed out about not having the gung ho student. There are trade offs.

 

[mograph]

Yeah, it's really hard to be that way about anything once you get married and have a family, whether its kung fu, sports or playing with a band. When you're home, you need to be with the kids, fix the house, that sort of thing, or just relax from the demands of the day. It is unfortunate if the relaxation involves vegetating in front of the TV, but such seems to be the modern way.

One more thing: there are guys who work their butts off even though they have a family; these are the guys who run a small business. They do this for survival. I can only see this happening with kung fu in the case of professional fighters or bodyguards ... otherwise we're talking about sport and recreation, I suppose.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The thing is, most of them don't train at home like they should...not really.

This is the norm for just about every MA I have been in or taught over the last 20 years, except for Sanda. And it is something that has always annoyed me. Note on Sanda it was only my sifu and me so I don't really count that one as it applies to the quote.

Where are the fighters?

Good question but I will say this, no matter how hard I train or have trained, no matter how much time I put in my wife (Chinese native) always tells me it is just a hobby.

 

[yak sao]

Good question but I will say this, no matter how hard I train or have trained, no matter how much time I put in my wife (Chinese native) always tells me it is just a hobby.

I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.
I understand that as we get older we can't mix it up as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......

 

[wtxs]

I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight..

ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.
I understand that as we get older we can't mix it up as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......

Agreed...mostly... as a martial artist we should all train as if we are a fighter....but I am talking outside the school, while at home. the only place we may disagree is likely not that big a deal... and we may not disagree at all actually....I would never refer to a good Wing Chun class as a Ballet... I have seen Taiji classes that are nothing but dance, but then there was little or no focus on MA. And then there are those that are convinced that the simple act of walking into a MA school and training once a week makes them invincible so there is no need to train anywhere else.

It is that training... with intent... at home... that makes all the difference. And of course what the student is actually after in the first place; health, physical fitness, Martial Arts, bragging rights, impress the neighbors.

But regardless… I have to admit… that of late I too am wondering where all the fighters have gone…. Things just ain’t what they

 

[yak sao]

I don't think we disagree at all. I'm sure it's in my wording.
Walking into a MA school doesn't make you a fighter anymore than walking into a garage makes you a car.
To be a fighter train like one...don't just mimic the movements.

 

[yak sao]

ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.

It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.

 

[wtxs]

It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.

ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.

:slapfight::slapfight::slapfight::lfao::lfao::lfao:

 

[Eric_H]

But regardless… I have to admit… that of late I too am wondering where all the fighters have gone…. Things just ain’t what they

It begins and ends with the teacher, where is the culture that breeds fighters? The type that turns tubs of goo into actual fighting machines?

It ain't in CMA, at least not that I've ever seen.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It begins and ends with the teacher, where is the culture that breeds fighters? The type that turns tubs of goo into actual fighting machines?

It ain't in CMA, at least not that I've ever seen.

Sometimes it’s the teacher and sometimes it’s the studentsand sometimes it is you geographical locations too. Whatever it is it just does not feel the same as it did 40 years ago or 20 years ago for that matter... But then maybe it is just me.

 

[mograph]

Here are a series of disconnected generalizations that may paint a picture:

In general, kids don't take martial arts in school, so there are no martial arts pick-up leagues for adults.
People in cities generally don't need to fight. If somebody does, he probably has a gun.
MMA is popular now, like karate or kung fu in the seventies. If it weren't a popular spectator sport, would people want to participate in it?
People want to lose weight and sometimes get fit. So they will do martial arts if it's good cardio and they don't have to think too much.

Martial Arts are difficult, requiring sacrifices.
A high level of skill in anything requires sacrifices. If the benefit is not immediately apparent, the average Joe will not appreciate the sacrifices.

Ah. One more: the key to success has been said to be the delay of gratification.
The desire for instant gratification is a problem with us people, and a high level of (martial) skill requires a delay of gratification.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.

 

[Flying Crane]

Where are the guys who are ate up with it? Who are hungry to learn and come to class every time the door's open. Who train their butts off outside of class, developing their skills and their bodies, getting with buddies every chance they can to cross hands. That's what I did...that's what I still do.
Where are these guys?
Where are the fighters?

If you continue to teach, you may have a handful of these guys in your career. If so, count yourself lucky. They are out there but they are not the norm.

 

[geezer]

I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.

The first problem is right here. There really isn't any professional outlet for a WC/WT/VT fighter... outside of teaching. And that's not fighting. If you have the physique, ability and mentality to be a professional fighter, your options are boxing, mma and possibly hockey. WC/WT/VT isn't going to get you the rewards you want. Not the money, not the fame, not even the opportunity to fight a lot in competition.

Secondly, if you are a bouncer or LEO and you want fighting skills that you can use on the job, a traditional martial art may have value, but it is a slow and roundabout way to get the practical skills that you need now.

So that leaves the hobbyists. Sad fact of life. If we want reality, the best choice is to experience instructors who have been fighters. In my own experience, Rene Latosa (Escrima), Emin Boztepe (WT), and Martin Torres (Eskrima) are three who come to mind. But fighters are not always great teachers. Especially when they are still in their fighting years.

I understand that as we get older we can't mix it up as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......

This is where I'm at now. After my last, and possibly worst injury ...messing up my back in March, I'm not sure if I will be able to really go at it full bore (or even "half-bore") ever again. And, there is the age thing. I'll be 57 next month. A friend, Maestro Martin recently asked me if I wanted to start a WC class at his MMA gym. I had to be straight-forward and told him that right now I'm just doing WC "at it's most compliant and unrealistic". He laughed really hard, then after a long pause, said that's why he asked me. As he put it, "At least you are being honest and know the difference. Phonies won't do that".

Maybe I'll give it a shot. Martin is the real thing: a boxer, grappler and eskrimador, but he's also studied WT way back. With his input, maybe some of his guys can get something useful out of it. Otherwise, I'd probably end up just teaching the dads, brothers and wives... the non-fighters who drop into the gym.

 

[cwk]

I feel you Yak Sao,
Getting students to train out of class= the bane of my existence


I've got a small but good set of lads training with me at the moment, they train hard in class and are always up for some sparring and using contact in drills, but getting them to practice anything outside of class is non starter. It's a shame that they don't realise how much of a difference just an hour a day would make as the potential is there. It's frustrating having to go over the exact same material in class week after week because they haven't practiced and have forgotten all the details taught the week before. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for training fundamentals religiously but I think it should be done in the students own time so that when they come to class, they can be quickly checked and corrected and then spend more time doing partner exercises,sparring,etc
Think I need to bang my head some more lol-

 

[mograph]

CWK, have you tried telling them that they can't spar until they show competency at something they should have drilled at home? In other words, just keep repeating the old lessons until they realize you won't move on until they improve?

 

[Xue Sheng]

CWK, have you tried telling them that they can't spar until they show competency at something they should have drilled at home? In other words, just keep repeating the old lessons until they realize you won't move on until they improve?

and then they quit.... which to me is ok but if it is your business it is a different story.

My taiji sifu, for the longest time, would not allow anyone to start push hands until they had a pretty good grasp of the long form but it is not his business so he didn't care if they left. After several years he simply got tired of it, felt no one really cared about real taiji anymore and started allowing people to progress to push hands. Now this is what happens... they don't train it, never advance at it and eventually quit just the same… it is still not his business and he still does not care but it is just reinforcing his view of what he feels many think about taijiquan.

 

[yak sao]

and then they quit.... which to me is ok but if it is your business it is a different story.

My taiji sifu, for the longest time, would not allow anyone to start push hands until they had a pretty good grasp of the long form but it is not his business so he didn't care if they left. After several years he simply got tired of it, felt no one really cared about real taiji anymore and started allowing people to progress to push hands. Now this is what happens... they don't train it, never advance at it and eventually quit just the same… it is still not his business and he still does not care but it is just reinforcing his view of what he feels many think about taijiquan.

Pretty much the same story here. We go over the same stuff week after week because most of them are not practicing. After a while, either out of pity or boredom(mine, not so much theirs), I will move them on. It does no good, because now there's just more for them not to practice.
I have this student a month or so back who got into a little scuffle in a parking lot...nothing too serious. He came to class and was telling about it. His exact words were " I didn't even think about using Wing Tsun".
This bonehead has been coming to class (very off and on) since 2005, and he "forgot"?????????
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.......