When will learning self-defence be simple?

[Guardian]

Self-Defense will be easy when I'm in my grave or scattered over the Rocky Mountains. It'll be real easy then.

 

[still learning]

Hello, and thank-youl for your thoughts and opinions here.....this can be an endless disscusions.

One day a simple poke in the eye might work....other times a train mind and body might be need to survive an attacker...

Awareness and Advoidance.....most likely the best thing to learn and use!

This is were being smarter (the mind) and escaping unharm ( the body)...leaves peaceful away........

Can self-defense be simple? ....Yes and always

Sign Smith and Wesson........Aloha

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Effective SD, quick and simple? Yes but dependent on who you're defending yourself against. The staple; eye gouges and groin strikes are next to useless against a truly skilled and aggressive opponent.

If you want simple self defense that is quick and easy to learn and use, then you need to go buy a shotgun, and shells, learn how to load it, how to shoot it, and then pay attention.... everything else is to be used when you forget your gun, or can't get your gun.

Not an option for everyone outside of America. I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

 

[suicide]

when you make it simple if :angel:

once you got the basics down packed everything else will come easily ...

 

[GBlues]

There is such a thing as easy,effective, simple to use self-defense. Now whether anyone wants to believe that or not is irregardless of the fact, that it does exist. I love hearing how, " My basics and your basics aren't going to be the same. I have basics that to most people seem like they are lightyears advanced above anybody else in the universe, but to me, they are the basics." And you know what I say to that ********! It's all egotistical machismo, crap. All it takes is to watch a tournament, any tournament, taekwondo, kenpo, ufc, mma to know, that it's crap. You fall back on the beginning basics, and even at that from what I've seen is that most blackbelts end up looking like two school yard kids flailing at each other. You never see a striking technique performed the way it is done in a dojo. Why? Because very few people are being taught the truth about combat. The truth is this. The very best people at dealing out violence are the people sitting in our correctional facilities. Most of them have never even been trained. In a self-defense situation there are only to states of conflict. Those that are getting violence performed on them, and those that are performing that violence on some one else. Here's a real simple way to find out if somebody is a point fighter, a bad ***, or a killer. Point fighters strike there opponent where there opponent is at. A bad *** strikes and his foot is where his opponent was at. A killer strikes and his whole body is where his opponent was at. Big differences here. When your life depends upon the skill that you have learned, it had better be effective, simple, and most of all easy to use. In other words all of your skills really should be aimed at causing the most amount of injury in the least amount of time. I know you know we all worry about legal issues and this that and the other. But the reality is, we should never be in social confrontation. It shouldn't be that big of a problem to our ego's to just back down. But when you are violently attacked by somebody that wants to do you as much damage as they can in the least amount of time. You need something that is going to even the odds, and unfortunately most martial arts fall far short. There are a few in my mind that would be effective, but they still fall far short of the simple is better motto.

Now that being said I'm going to give you a guys a true story about a guy who I knew when I was younger. This was a guy who studied 3 or 4 different martial arts, and was very good. He was taking the trash out at one the local grocery stores. He was attacked no warning, no provocation just simply attacked, by 3 guys that wanted to inflict as much damage as they could in the shortest amount of time possible. All of his training failed him. He was put in the hospital and was never the same afterwards. Now, are you going to tell me that what he studied was effective? Probably was, but not when it really mattered. When it's not " I'm going to fight you and were going to duel and see who is better" mindset, it didn't work out so well for him. Because he never had a chance to duel.

There are systems out there that do directly deal with this type of problem. They simply focus on one thing and one thing only, and that is get injuries. Injuries are the only thing that stop attackers. All the techniques in the world aren't going to help you. You need targets and you need to know how to destroy those targets. That is what will save your life, in a real violent situation. I'm being beat on, I'm the ground, but hey, I can roll right on that guys ankle and break it. So you do and that is where you start.

 

[blindsage]

Thanks for sharing the truth with us, I'm sure we're all better off for it.

 

[BLACK LION]

From a self preservation standpoint which is the core of every human.

I dont want to be on the maybe/maybe-not end of most training out there.

I want a guarantee.

"A 9mm is good for SD situations, especially with well placed shots"...

Well maybe, maybe not??? that depends on x or y or z???

the gross motor functions enabled to assist the human body in "preservation" cannot waste precious seconds with this indecisiveness.

A 12ga with 00 buck or 1oz slugs is a gurantee.

I dont have time to fiddle with the "knife defense" or the "bat defense" or the "gun disarm" techniques... I only need to focus on the basic relative and contrasting principles and train/act accordingly. I must focus on the single principle that supercedes any technique... the brain is the most powerful weapon and the body is secondary to that... If I shut it off there is no threat... If I break the body it cannot move... snap on tools and labor saving devices are inanimate and harmless without a body behind them with the intent and ability to put it to use.... even if an ak47 is on my face it is not my priority or my focus... the brain that tells the finger to pull the trigger IS... The arm that functions to hold and fire the rifle IS... not the rifle itself. Technique will have us envisioning some deul in which trained skill can be put to use... it also connotates violence as being some sort of chaotic occurence... Dancing with the technique playbook will get you a one way ticket on a stretcher ride when dealing with a true situation in which protection and preservation is the highest priority....

refine your skills with the principles that underline what you train... thats the basics... and thats the simplicity.... You will find that most of what everyone trains is defined by the same principles but diluted by technique and style...

 

[GBlues]

Effective SD, quick and simple? Yes but dependent on who you're defending yourself against. The staple; eye gouges and groin strikes are next to useless against a truly skilled and aggressive opponent.




Not an option for everyone outside of America. I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

Injuries have the same effect on everybody. Doesn't matter if your Bruce Lee if you jab him in the eye, it's a) going to hurt b) cause his other eye water in sympathy for the eye that was just damaged,c) cause a spinal reflex action that gives you a moment to pick, and attack another target to cause more injury too. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. If your hit in the carotid artery your going to react the same way an unskilled person will. Injuries aren't something that, you can say, "well i've taken punches before and I can take a shot to the throat." It doesn't work that way. You can stab a guy 57 times and never hit a vital target. It only takes once or twice to hit one or two vital targets and the guy is going to die, no matter how tough that he is. So while you can say it's worthless against a trained skilled opponent. Let somebody poke a finger in your eye just once and see how well you can fight after that. Not very.

 

[GBlues]

Thanks for sharing the truth with us, I'm sure we're all better off for it.

Hey your welcome man. No problem at all. Anytime. LOL!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Our Professor once mention...NO matter your skills...NO one can prevent or stop a "false crack" -the unexpected hit?

Like all accidents in cars and otherwise....it is simple to look back and everyone tells you could have done this or that...fact is s"UNEXPECTED HIT?" are hard to recover from... So with training or without training...this is one thing no one can protect themselves.

There will always be stitutions...were simple works and sometimes it doesn't.

Walking thru the sidewalks in Waikiki with lots of people all around you...suddenly as two cops walk by me....I get grab from behind by one of them...."unexpected stop" it turns out it was a friend who I hadn't seen in years....whew!

For the many that trains...will always get friends,love ones, that do not want to train...but ask what they can use to protect themselves...

Again Awareness and Avoidance (be alert to your surroundings) is my advise and in life or death.....the EYES HAVE MY VOTE! ....AND anyone can do this!

Aloha, simple foods...usually taste good all the time...SPAM MUSIBI

 

[girlbug2]

Sure, learning self defense is simple.
Just like childbirth is simple.
But not easy...
nor quick.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Injuries have the same effect on everybody. Doesn't matter if your Bruce Lee if you jab him in the eye, it's a) going to hurt b) cause his other eye water in sympathy for the eye that was just damaged,c) cause a spinal reflex action that gives you a moment to pick, and attack another target to cause more injury too. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. If your hit in the carotid artery your going to react the same way an unskilled person will. Injuries aren't something that, you can say, "well i've taken punches before and I can take a shot to the throat." It doesn't work that way. You can stab a guy 57 times and never hit a vital target. It only takes once or twice to hit one or two vital targets and the guy is going to die, no matter how tough that he is. So while you can say it's worthless against a trained skilled opponent. Let somebody poke a finger in your eye just once and see how well you can fight after that. Not very.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them.

2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack.

3. Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.




All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

 

[qwksilver61]

Sad.....when no one wants to commit...when people think,OK!this is enough,I don't need to pay my dues or really learn self-defence.
Instant everything........bummer

 

[BLACK LION]

For the record. I am not saying this is an overnight occurrence.
I am providing information that has made it easier to learn and to train others. I have been at it for 25 years. The last 7 or more have been spent doing it all over again but this time with only principle and focus on inherent weaknesses evey human shares and the uncontrolled reactions that co-incide with them all. I do believe learning can be done quickly but building integrity takes time and training and practice. I relate this to a US NAVY destroyer... It can be built failry quickly and capable of many things but it takes time with the crew and training and practice to build its overall integrity as a battleship.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

No one is saying its an "end all" and the only go-to target. The EYES are however a sensory organ that cannot be physically strengthened by going to the gym or taking supplements or drugs or anything. "
"Eye gouging"is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers, other bodyparts, or instruments. Eye-gouging involves a very high risk of permanent eye injury, such as visual impairment

exophthalmos= protrusion of the eye from the orbit, or socket.

traumatic globe luxation=the eye is jolted far enough out of its socket for the eyelids to close behind it, but the eye muscles and optic nerve generally remain intact.

traumatic avulsion of the globe= the muscles and optic nerve are partially or totally severed, usually because the eye has been knocked completely out of the socket.

Eye gouging has been taught in military combat manuals for decades.... for a reason.

It is effective plain and simple and above all else... it is an INJURY that we all can agree requires immediate medical attention... Like a trip to the ER. Definately a viable target and no its not "commonly and easily defended".

Now on to the jacobs.

Approximately 50 kg of force is required to rupture the testicle...


"Testicular trauma is defined as any injury sustained by the testicle. Types of injuries include blunt, penetrating, or degloving."

"The second most common cause of testicular trauma is a kick to the groin. Less common etiologies include motor vehicle accidents, falls, and straddle injuries."
"The most common cause of penetrating testicular injuries is a gunshot wound to the genital area. Other causes include stab wounds, self-mutilation, animal bites (usually dog), and emasculation."
"The most common cause of degloving testicular injuries is accidents incurred while operating heavy machinery (eg, industrial or farming accidents)."
"Patients with testicular trauma typically present to the emergency department with a straightforward history of injury (eg, sports injury, kick to the groin, gunshot wound) soon after the event occurs"
"Patients who have sustained severe blunt trauma usually exhibit symptoms of extreme scrotal pain, frequently associated with nausea and vomiting"

A ruptured testicle or torn scrotum is an injury that requires medical attention if not surgery... If you think of only "kicking the balls" you are failing to encompass the goal of utilizing that precious target and activating the text book spinal reflex associated with it...

If I shove my patela or forearm or shin with my entire mass into your testicles with the intent on making ovaries out of them I will get results that will lead me to the next target which would most likely be the brachial plexus since you would be curled over and clutching the effected area.

The point is not to train to take an easy or cheap shot and call it a day. The goal is to injure inherent targets we all have and access the spinal reflex associated in order to set up the next strike to the next target to accesss the spinal reflex and so on....
We are not just blindly ponding meat in hopes to win the lottery.
I know where I want to hit everyone I see becuase I know what you will give me in exchange for me striking that area. A spinal reflex that goliath himself has/had no control over....no one can.

We are talking pain vs. injury.... I get pain and discomfort by flicking your eye and scratching it or crumpling your contact lenses... I get injury by gettting in there like a rabid lion and shoving my thumbs down to the knuckle into the eye sockets and ripping them out....

clearly 2 different mindets and 2 different levels of intent/ability

1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them. This is your perception that IMO is not based on specific study and/or training in targeting. Its is common for folks to bring these up and single them out but I am sorry...they are not as fortified and well defended as you say... if that was the case children wouldnt be so successful... I bet you my daughter can hit most people in the jacobs and get a text book reflex...then poke or scratch the eye once they bend over... whats funny is she will say "wanna see my barbie"....

2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack. The difference here is clear... you are reffereing to social situations in which the elasticity of punching and kicking was the driving force... If I take my forearm and shove it into your throat with 195lbs of force behind it...you will go to the hospital. If I punch you in the neck you may cough a lil, maybe choke, maybe pass out but the effects will wear off quick and you will be back in the game.
The eyes and groin arent the only targets...there are upwards of 50 viable targets including the organs.

Let me make reference to the knockout blow delivered by pacquiao to hattons "supersternal notch"... every punch to the face and body and every knockdown up to that point was irrelevant. That blow put him down and put him in bad shape. It was clear he was unable to breathe by the jerking of his chest and arching of his spine. Same thing happened to oscar de lajoya when he was punched in the liver...

3. Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.

There is no such thing as a 1 hit quit or 1 shot 1 kill in my training or anything make reference to... I train to strike targets to injure them and gain the spinal reflex associated to put them into position for the next injury and so on till I am satisfied... not until someone taps out or gurgles... I do not train to punch and kick meat in hopes to get ,lucky or win the lottery or to gain some social record as the winner...

there is a difference between ruthless-violent agression and an egotistical display of monkey politics by establishing pecking order or alpha male status.

As far as "full resistance" is concerned... they are all "resistant" until politely or unpolitely convinced otherwise. This I can guarantee...eveyone no matter the state or stature has buttons that will put them down temporarily of for good. Its your job to get in there and get the work done without compromise and without doubt and without excuse. Just do it.

No you cant swallow an elephant whole or even in 2 bites... sooooo
How do you eat an elephant??????








1 plate at a time!!!






All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

Effectiveness is in the will and intent of the warrior and the ability to force it in action... it has nothing to do with the other person place or thing.

I am effective becuase I will be... I am 300% and my opponent is 0%
It has everything to do with:
Physical management
Mental management
Emotional management
if any of these things are not at 100% in training or in combat then you are compromising yourself and vulnerable to the will and ability of your opponent....

300% you and 0% them.... always.... no excuses no exeptions

 

[BLACK LION]

the difference between pain and injury is simple...

Here is a photo from a trining session not long ago... notice I am striking the eyes with all my weight on someone who is taller and weighs more... I am under his base and he is completely off of his.... you can guess where he ended up next once the rotation and projection cycle was complete...
on the ground about 6ft away...

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Very well written piece Black Lion. I must admit that I'm glad you posted up as you did because it forces me to qualify why I'm not an eye-gouging / groin striking proponent. I'll do my best to address your points.

TWF: Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

BL: No one is saying its an "end all" and the only go-to target. The EYES are however a sensory organ that cannot be physically strengthened by going to the gym or taking supplements or drugs or anything. "
"Eye gouging"is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers, other bodyparts, or instruments. Eye-gouging involves a very high risk of permanent eye injury, such as visual impairment

exophthalmos= protrusion of the eye from the orbit, or socket.

traumatic globe luxation=the eye is jolted far enough out of its socket for the eyelids to close behind it, but the eye muscles and optic nerve generally remain intact.

traumatic avulsion of the globe= the muscles and optic nerve are partially or totally severed, usually because the eye has been knocked completely out of the socket.

Eye gouging has been taught in military combat manuals for decades.... for a reason.

It is effective plain and simple and above all else... it is an INJURY that we all can agree requires immediate medical attention... Like a trip to the ER. Definately a viable target and no its not "commonly and easily defended".

Yes eye gouging can be effective but not in the way most train it. I've seen too many MA schools who teach their eye gouges as basic rakes and pokes without the use of body weight behind it. Such practices instill over-confidence in a poorly applied technique and because it is next to impossible to utilize full resistance testing in eye gouging, students never realize that they have been set up for failure.
Though I'm going to continue disagreeing with you on the fact that it is not commonly and easily defended. People instinctively cover their faces when threatened. And trained fighter keeps a guard up, pure an simple. If they're not guarding their face it more than likely means they are trying to draw you in.
Viable target? Yes. Easy to attack? No.

BL: Now on to the jacobs.

Approximately 50 kg of force is required to rupture the testicle...


"Testicular trauma is defined as any injury sustained by the testicle. Types of injuries include blunt, penetrating, or degloving."

"The second most common cause of testicular trauma is a kick to the groin. Less common etiologies include motor vehicle accidents, falls, and straddle injuries."
"The most common cause of penetrating testicular injuries is a gunshot wound to the genital area. Other causes include stab wounds, self-mutilation, animal bites (usually dog), and emasculation."
"The most common cause of degloving testicular injuries is accidents incurred while operating heavy machinery (eg, industrial or farming accidents)."
"Patients with testicular trauma typically present to the emergency department with a straightforward history of injury (eg, sports injury, kick to the groin, gunshot wound) soon after the event occurs"
"Patients who have sustained severe blunt trauma usually exhibit symptoms of extreme scrotal pain, frequently associated with nausea and vomiting"

A ruptured testicle or torn scrotum is an injury that requires medical attention if not surgery... If you think of only "kicking the balls" you are failing to encompass the goal of utilizing that precious target and activating the text book spinal reflex associated with it...

If I shove my patela or forearm or shin with my entire mass into your testicles with the intent on making ovaries out of them I will get results that will lead me to the next target which would most likely be the brachial plexus since you would be curled over and clutching the effected area.

Onto the groin. Again my cynicism comes from improper training I've seen and again the problem comes from not being able to engage in full resistance tests for this strike. Too many idiots do flick kicks or other rubbish and call it groin striking.

The point is not to train to take an easy or cheap shot and call it a day. The goal is to injure inherent targets we all have and access the spinal reflex associated in order to set up the next strike to the next target to accesss the spinal reflex and so on....
We are not just blindly ponding meat in hopes to win the lottery.
I know where I want to hit everyone I see becuase I know what you will give me in exchange for me striking that area. A spinal reflex that goliath himself has/had no control over....no one can.

We are talking pain vs. injury.... I get pain and discomfort by flicking your eye and scratching it or crumpling your contact lenses... I get injury by gettting in there like a rabid lion and shoving my thumbs down to the knuckle into the eye sockets and ripping them out....

clearly 2 different mindets and 2 different levels of intent/ability

There's the clincher; pain vs injury. Maybe I'm just jaded from all the rubbish I've seen floating around, but most people fail to properly utilize eye and groin attacks. They fail to realize it is not the be all and end all of combat. It is a tool, like any other. Oh and one thing I have found is that most practitioners lack the mind set to want to inflict permanent injury on their opponents. Whether from legalities or just "ethics" and thus their eye and groins trikes are laughable. BTW: Go back to one of the early UFCs where Varlens submit Kimo's instructor with elbows to the groin. If a 300+lb man needs to elbow a 200lb man three times in the groin with his full weight before the smaller guy taps, what does that say about adrenaline and pain?

1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them. This is your perception that IMO is not based on specific study and/or training in targeting. Its is common for folks to bring these up and single them out but I am sorry...they are not as fortified and well defended as you say... if that was the case children wouldnt be so successful... I bet you my daughter can hit most people in the jacobs and get a text book reflex...then poke or scratch the eye once they bend over... whats funny is she will say "wanna see my barbie"....

No it is my knowledge based on years of personal experience and discussions with many others; pro-fighters, street fighters and military. As I stated above, people instinctively cover the faces when attacked. It is ingrained in our biology. A skilled fighter will guard his head, just watch any UFC match or even street brawl (where the fighters have a degree of skill).

As for the groin. I have been hit in the groin a number of times and with great ease but those where not combat situations and the my reaction was more psychological than physical. Hitting me in the groin in combat is going to be a lot harder and with adrenaline running, those particular strikes would not have had any effect. How do I know? Because getting kicked in the groin is a conditioning exercise I once used to practice (I quit it on my doctors advise). Heck, I've had the "pleasure" of teaching a student who turned up to class intoxicated and even he was able to protect his groin much more easily and instinctively than nearly any other part of his body (except for his face).

2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack. The difference here is clear... you are reffereing to social situations in which the elasticity of punching and kicking was the driving force... If I take my forearm and shove it into your throat with 195lbs of force behind it...you will go to the hospital. If I punch you in the neck you may cough a lil, maybe choke, maybe pass out but the effects will wear off quick and you will be back in the game.
The eyes and groin arent the only targets...there are upwards of 50 viable targets including the organs.

Let me make reference to the knockout blow delivered by pacquiao to hattons "supersternal notch"... every punch to the face and body and every knockdown up to that point was irrelevant. That blow put him down and put him in bad shape. It was clear he was unable to breathe by the jerking of his chest and arching of his spine. Same thing happened to oscar de lajoya when he was punched in the liver...

TFW: Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.

BL: There is no such thing as a 1 hit quit or 1 shot 1 kill in my training or anything make reference to... I train to strike targets to injure them and gain the spinal reflex associated to put them into position for the next injury and so on till I am satisfied... not until someone taps out or gurgles... I do not train to punch and kick meat in hopes to get ,lucky or win the lottery or to gain some social record as the winner...

there is a difference between ruthless-violent agression and an egotistical display of monkey politics by establishing pecking order or alpha male status.

Oh I agree with these statement. But how "quick and easy" is this level of SD to attain? I'd be quite confident in my abilities to use "quick and easy" SD techniques but the training itself was anything but. And this thread (to me anyway) is asking the question of whether an SD curriculum that is "quick and easy" to learn (as opposed to execute) is viable. To which I'm saying no. I've participated in so called short SD courses and have even been asked to host them. But my integrity as MAist means I can't accept the viability of the these course's "vulnerable area attacks" (largely strike based) because I have seen them fail in training and in real life. Better that they focus primarily on conflict avoidance and awareness (which to their credit, more and more SD short courses are doing).

As far as "full resistance" is concerned... they are all "resistant" until politely or unpolitely convinced otherwise. This I can guarantee...eveyone no matter the state or stature has buttons that will put them down temporarily of for good. Its your job to get in there and get the work done without compromise and without doubt and without excuse. Just do it.

By full resistance training I mean utilsing the moves in a training environment against a fully resistant opponent and actually scoring / utilizing the moves and gaining the effects they claim. It doesn't happen, so how can a student be confident in a "go-to" move that they haven't effectively utilised in training?

No you cant swallow an elephant whole or even in 2 bites... sooooo
How do you eat an elephant??????

1 plate at a time!!!

Again this comes down to whether SD can be learnt "easily and effectively". Whether utilizing attrition or exposing weak spots, this level of SD is not something one can learn in a few short and easy lessons.

TFW: All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

BL: Effectiveness is in the will and intent of the warrior and the ability to force it in action... it has nothing to do with the other person place or thing.

I am effective becuase I will be... I am 300% and my opponent is 0%
It has everything to do with:
Physical management
Mental management
Emotional management
if any of these things are not at 100% in training or in combat then you are compromising yourself and vulnerable to the will and ability of your opponent....

300% you and 0% them.... always.... no excuses no exeptions

Okay, now this part is just wrong. You can have all the intent and will you want but if you fight a superior opponent and or are just unlucky, yu will lose. Simple fact. The Polish who fought against Nazi invasion were brave men with the truest intent. They lost because psychology does not guarantee victory over a phsycially superior force.
And again, "easy and simple" SD is not going to allow an average Joe to cultivate that level of mental preparedness.




Alright, now for my little rant. SD should be easy and effective in the techniques it utilises. They should rely on gross muscle action and moves that have been shown again and again to work in training and outside of it. Look at the best fighteres around, they utilize fundamentals and basics, not weird **** show tricks or esoteric hoddo-guru junk. Why? Because easy and effective is what works. The old Keep It Simple Stupid adage. However, just because a technique is "easy and effective" or even simplistic, doesn't mean it is going to be effectively mastered in a few short and easy lessons. That's a pipe dream and anyone who has dedicated any substantial part of their life to MA can see it for what it is.

On a side note. Effective self-defense takes time and training. Effective "self-offense" (eg criminal assaults) only take a desire to harm others and a weapon and/or the element of surprise. So please don't get them mixed up.

 

[GBlues]

Very well written piece Black Lion. I must admit that I'm glad you posted up as you did because it forces me to qualify why I'm not an eye-gouging / groin striking proponent. I'll do my best to address your points.


Yes eye gouging can be effective but not in the way most train it. I've seen too many MA schools who teach their eye gouges as basic rakes and pokes without the use of body weight behind it. Such practices instill over-confidence in a poorly applied technique and because it is next to impossible to utilize full resistance testing in eye gouging, students never realize that they have been set up for failure.
Though I'm going to continue disagreeing with you on the fact that it is not commonly and easily defended. People instinctively cover their faces when threatened. And trained fighter keeps a guard up, pure an simple. If they're not guarding their face it more than likely means they are trying to draw you in.
Viable target? Yes. Easy to attack? No.




Onto the groin. Again my cynicism comes from improper training I've seen and again the problem comes from not being able to engage in full resistance tests for this strike. Too many idiots do flick kicks or other rubbish and call it groin striking.




There's the clincher; pain vs injury. Maybe I'm just jaded from all the rubbish I've seen floating around, but most people fail to properly utilize eye and groin attacks. They fail to realize it is not the be all and end all of combat. It is a tool, like any other. Oh and one thing I have found is that most practitioners lack the mind set to want to inflict permanent injury on their opponents. Whether from legalities or just "ethics" and thus their eye and groins trikes are laughable. BTW: Go back to one of the early UFCs where Varlens submit Kimo's instructor with elbows to the groin. If a 300+lb man needs to elbow a 200lb man three times in the groin with his full weight before the smaller guy taps, what does that say about adrenaline and pain?




No it is my knowledge based on years of personal experience and discussions with many others; pro-fighters, street fighters and military. As I stated above, people instinctively cover the faces when attacked. It is ingrained in our biology. A skilled fighter will guard his head, just watch any UFC match or even street brawl (where the fighters have a degree of skill).

As for the groin. I have been hit in the groin a number of times and with great ease but those where not combat situations and the my reaction was more psychological than physical. Hitting me in the groin in combat is going to be a lot harder and with adrenaline running, those particular strikes would not have had any effect. How do I know? Because getting kicked in the groin is a conditioning exercise I once used to practice (I quit it on my doctors advise). Heck, I've had the "pleasure" of teaching a student who turned up to class intoxicated and even he was able to protect his groin much more easily and instinctively than nearly any other part of his body (except for his face).




Oh I agree with these statement. But how "quick and easy" is this level of SD to attain? I'd be quite confident in my abilities to use "quick and easy" SD techniques but the training itself was anything but. And this thread (to me anyway) is asking the question of whether an SD curriculum that is "quick and easy" to learn (as opposed to execute) is viable. To which I'm saying no. I've participated in so called short SD courses and have even been asked to host them. But my integrity as MAist means I can't accept the viability of the these course's "vulnerable area attacks" (largely strike based) because I have seen them fail in training and in real life. Better that they focus primarily on conflict avoidance and awareness (which to their credit, more and more SD short courses are doing).





By full resistance training I mean utilsing the moves in a training environment against a fully resistant opponent and actually scoring / utilizing the moves and gaining the effects they claim. It doesn't happen, so how can a student be confident in a "go-to" move that they haven't effectively utilised in training?




Again this comes down to whether SD can be learnt "easily and effectively". Whether utilizing attrition or exposing weak spots, this level of SD is not something one can learn in a few short and easy lessons.




Okay, now this part is just wrong. You can have all the intent and will you want but if you fight a superior opponent and or are just unlucky, yu will lose. Simple fact. The Polish who fought against Nazi invasion were brave men with the truest intent. They lost because psychology does not guarantee victory over a phsycially superior force.
And again, "easy and simple" SD is not going to allow an average Joe to cultivate that level of mental preparedness.




Alright, now for my little rant. SD should be easy and effective in the techniques it utilises. They should rely on gross muscle action and moves that have been shown again and again to work in training and outside of it. Look at the best fighteres around, they utilize fundamentals and basics, not weird **** show tricks or esoteric hoddo-guru junk. Why? Because easy and effective is what works. The old Keep It Simple Stupid adage. However, just because a technique is "easy and effective" or even simplistic, doesn't mean it is going to be effectively mastered in a few short and easy lessons. That's a pipe dream and anyone who has dedicated any substantial part of their life to MA can see it for what it is.

On a side note. Effective self-defense takes time and training. Effective "self-offense" (eg criminal assaults) only take a desire to harm others and a weapon and/or the element of surprise. So please don't get them mixed up.

I think the one issue that I would like to take up here is the continued use of skilled opponents. Now understand most of the people here, know a hell of a lot more about martial arts than I will probably ever dream of, and I have just begun to find the value in true target based systems. So I'm a big time beginner there. However I think the problem that you have is that you just can't get your mind around the fact that, it's not about dueling. It's not about 2 guys facing off, both got there hands up, dancing around trying to find an opening. Those types of scenarios are good when your making a video with your buddies and your kind of fighting but your really not in any danger. Same thing with the mma or ufc. Which you keep bringing up the UfC mixed martial arts arena fighters. I forget which one, but I remember Vitor Belfort when he first fought in a UFC match. There wasn't a whole lot of skill there. He just raised across the ring and started raining blows on people, taking some of them out in 10 seconds. So, that right there throws even some of the trained martial artists right out the window. Because under a viscious, commited attack, they curled up like the proverbially school kid, when the bully comes to take there lunch money. Seemed like it was a pretty simple and effective techinique to me. "Run across the ring and just start hitting the guy and don't stop hitting him till I win." <-----What I imagine was going through his head at the time. So to say that against a skilled opponent simple isn't going to work, that's really ludicrous. The reality is that if you pick up a rock and smash the guys head, and get an injury it was a brilliant technique, because it worked. I think that is your biggest problem. Your getting stuck on a set of unwritten rules. I've had people tell me it was unfair to kick a man in the testicles. I've been told that a true martial artist would never resort to pulling hair because he should be good enough that he doesn't have to. ********, I'm going to do what ever it takes to walk away, and hopefully in a better condition than the jack *** who had to attack me. Simple is better. It's faster, it's easier to learn, and it's easier to retain. Think about it like this. Unless you have a job where math is required everyday, what is the easiest math problem that you can remember and you will probably never forget? 1+1=2 right? Well, if it's more complicated than 1+1=2 or 1+1+1=3 forget about it. It has to be my foot+ his testicules=injury or my foot+ body weight+ his ankle= his broken ankle. That's simple. Ok it's not about dueling. It's about the very second I know in my gut this guy is going to hurt me I have to do 1+1=2 before he can do anything to attack me. Because if I don't, I give him a chance to hurt me, or put us in a dueling scenario where he has a chance to use superior skill. That's why that first UFC Vitor Belfort did so well. He never gave them a chance to fight back. He was on them before they knew what was going on. In real life that's the way it goes down. You may have no warning, it may be a surprised attack. But, if your not injured you can still fight back. That's why I say it should be simple to learn sd, it shouldn' take 40 years to master. Because the bottom line is this. As long as you and I believe that when were attacked we're going to be put in a dueling type situation, where it's about superior skill and training. We can pretend, that we know what were doing. We can pretend like we got it under control, because we've trained. When the reality is far, far worse than that. You aren't going to have a chance to duel. You aren't going to be asked to put up your dukes. Your just going to be attacked. By somebody, that doesn't care if you want to duel, he doesn't care, if you have kids, or a wife, he only cares about doing as much physical damage to you as is possible. Possibly even to the point of death. IF we train to fight our fight, and know nothing about there fight, we are in deep caca!! Because the bad guys play by different rules! Good guys don't tear peoples eyes out, good guys don't crush other peoples throats, or break bones, Right? Good guys don't use knives to kill people. That's right good guys don't do those things, but the bad guys do. They play in a whole different world. They don't work like we do. It's not 1+1=2 it's knife=kill. they skipped a whole step, and went straight to the answer. They didn't have to figure out, you know, knife+ stab vital target=death. They went straight to kill. Yet we have to work on a neutral bow+ grab knife hand+ kick to the knee+hammerlock=your dead.cause you couldn't grab the freaking knife hand if you wanted to! To many rules, to many movements. Like Bruce Lee said here please pay attention at about 6:20 because that is where my real point is leading too,

So what does Bruce Lee say about, alot of movements? What does he say to do when somebody grabs your wrist? He says, "Step on his instep, he'll let go." Right? How long does it take to learn to step on a man's instep? It's not complicated, it's a simple solution to a problem. How fast do you think a beginning student would remember that? Probably pretty fast. he might be able to use it that day. Because it's not complicated, and the more he practices that simple movement, the better and faster he's going to get at it. That's the best I can do or say. It's my opinion, whether for right or wrong. Self-defense can be easy to learn, it can be simple, it can be effective, and people are teaching and doing it now. Just depends on what you want.

 

[MJS]

On the subject of eye shots, groin shots, etc. I cringe when I hear people say that they're fight enders. Its usually these people that assume that those things are magical shots or they really put 100% faith in the 1 shot 1 kill. Personally, I dont do either. This is not to say that 1 shot KOs dont happen, but they're either a result of a) hitting the exact sweet spot or b) they happen after a series of set up shots.

As for them being hard to hit.....nobody can protect every part of their body at all times. Its also possible to target other areas to get to the desired target. I also like to think of it like this. If I can reach someone with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to open my hand and hit their eyes. Also, if we look at the UFC, we've seen many eye and groin shots, accidental as they may be, they still happen. And if they were not effective, the ref wouldnt jump in and pause the fight until the other guy recovers.

Like I always say, they're simply targets available to me. I'm not going to dismiss them, because someone else can't find a way to target them effectively. If you train to make those hits, vs. someone who doesnt...well, it shouldnt take much thought to know who would have the most success. Those targets can be used to set up other shots.

As for a flick vs. a harder shot....all comes down to what and how you train and what your desired result is. Kenpo has numerous flicks to the eyes and groin. I've worked these shots, and yes, they are effective. Even if that flick to the eyes, does nothing more than cause a flinch or them to be momentarily distracted, thats fine. I got a reaction that I can further take advantage of. Now, dont get me wrong, I am also a fan of blasting the groin with a hard kick. Again, it comes back to the desired results that you want. Its no different than a boxer using 2 or 3 shots to set up the big one. If we were to really watch a BJJ match, we'd see guys like Royce and Rickson thinking many moves ahead. They're going after one thing to get a desired response to set up the move that they were really going after.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

So to say that against a skilled opponent simple isn't going to work, that's really ludicrous. The reality is that if you pick up a rock and smash the guys head, and get an injury it was a brilliant technique, because it worked. I think that is your biggest problem. Your getting stuck on a set of unwritten rules. I've had people tell me it was unfair to kick a man in the testicles. I've been told that a true martial artist would never resort to pulling hair because he should be good enough that he doesn't have to. ********, I'm going to do what ever it takes to walk away, and hopefully in a better condition than the jack *** who had to attack me. Simple is better. It's faster, it's easier to learn, and it's easier to retain.

I agree one hundred percent that simple is best. But again applying even simple techniques takes a lot of practice and even physical conditioning. An out of shape individual who has practiced some boxing for a few weeks is not going to be as effective as a fit boxer who has trained the same techniques for a couple of years. The fighter in question was not some slob they just picked up of the street. As for true MAists not resorting to dirty techniques, I think that depends wholly on the individual. I've trained with a number of individuals who would use whatever they needed to win; carrying concealed weapons and taking roids. But I've also traiend with MAists who believ in not kicking a man when he's down and only using "minimum force", so I cane see what you're saying.

So what does Bruce Lee say about, alot of movements? What does he say to do when somebody grabs your wrist? He says, "Step on his instep, he'll let go." Right? How long does it take to learn to step on a man's instep? It's not complicated, it's a simple solution to a problem. How fast do you think a beginning student would remember that? Probably pretty fast. he might be able to use it that day. Because it's not complicated, and the more he practices that simple movement, the better and faster he's going to get at it. That's the best I can do or say. It's my opinion, whether for right or wrong. Self-defense can be easy to learn, it can be simple, it can be effective, and people are teaching and doing it now. Just depends on what you want.

Good point. But notice the part I put in bold? It's what I've sadi all along. It depends what level of SD you want. A fight with some drunk who just wants a grope, isn't going to take much. A fight against a skilled opponant or someone high on drugs (and having talked to nurses and paramedics these are scary), is a different matter all together.

On the subject of eye shots, groin shots, etc. I cringe when I hear people say that they're fight enders. Its usually these people that assume that those things are magical shots or they really put 100% faith in the 1 shot 1 kill. Personally, I dont do either. This is not to say that 1 shot KOs dont happen, but they're either a result of a) hitting the exact sweet spot or b) they happen after a series of set up shots.

As for them being hard to hit.....nobody can protect every part of their body at all times. Its also possible to target other areas to get to the desired target. I also like to think of it like this. If I can reach someone with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to open my hand and hit their eyes. Also, if we look at the UFC, we've seen many eye and groin shots, accidental as they may be, they still happen. And if they were not effective, the ref wouldnt jump in and pause the fight until the other guy recovers.

Like I always say, they're simply targets available to me. I'm not going to dismiss them, because someone else can't find a way to target them effectively. If you train to make those hits, vs. someone who doesnt...well, it shouldnt take much thought to know who would have the most success. Those targets can be used to set up other shots.

As for a flick vs. a harder shot....all comes down to what and how you train and what your desired result is. Kenpo has numerous flicks to the eyes and groin. I've worked these shots, and yes, they are effective. Even if that flick to the eyes, does nothing more than cause a flinch or them to be momentarily distracted, thats fine. I got a reaction that I can further take advantage of. Now, dont get me wrong, I am also a fan of blasting the groin with a hard kick. Again, it comes back to the desired results that you want. Its no different than a boxer using 2 or 3 shots to set up the big one. If we were to really watch a BJJ match, we'd see guys like Royce and Rickson thinking many moves ahead. They're going after one thing to get a desired response to set up the move that they were really going after.

Exaclty. Targeting so called weak spots should be part of a larger strategy and not the only "go to" move in one's arsenal. I do come down hard on the eye raking / groin striking mentality. But it's not because I believe them to be inehrently useless but rather the fact that they are often not correctly being utilised.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Sorry for double posting but I thought I'd post links to two stories where groins were struck. The first with an unhappy ending and the second with a happy one. While I personally believe that targeting weak spots is a valid strategical tool, I do not believe that they should be focused upon to the point that other techniques and tactics are lost.

Woman fails to stop rape: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=812120&_cobr=optus

Woman escapes attacker: http://myselfdefenseblog.com/http:/...girl-kicks-knife-wielding-attacker-gets-away/