When Hatsumi Soke passes

[JadecloudAlchemist]

And answering it is.......??????

Most people would not answer the question. Most people would say it is rude and inconsiderate or they may just be silent and walk away. If we are going to ask something in regards to something Japanese then we have to put in the factor on how the Japanese deal with issues like this because most of the people who would have such an answer would be Japanese or deal with Japanese and are not going to answer such a question as a Westerner does. Asking the question after Hatsumi passes is a more tasteful approach and would not be looked at so scornfully.

I do not mean to sound like I am putting Japanese or those who deal with them on a high horse but the cultural differences should be addressed. Even if we are not Japanese the rules of Japanese mannerism are still an effect because we are dealing with a Japanese art based in Japan.

 

[stone_dragone]

For the discussions sake - getting back to the OP - how did Takamatsu handle this?

FTR, I am not a Bujinkan member, nor am I even a Ninpo/BBT/etc practitioner, but I strike for an understanding of the greater MA world as it is almost unbelievably fascinating.

It is very distasteful to ask "Who get's your bike when you're dead?" even in western culture. It is even more so in Japanese frame of thought. Followers feel such a bond with their teacher that distasteful questions about him are found to be offensive as well, even if you aren't talking to him.

Without going to the "do a search" related answers, I think that someone with experience or knowledge in this area could post a summary of their understanding of how this situation was handled one generation ago. Understanding how Takamatsu selected and passed the mantle to Hatsumi could give insight into how it will be done in the next 25 years - lets be realistic, people live much longer these days and its feasible that Hatsumi sensei will see past the century mark.

This insight doesn't need to be right...I mean come one, the guys a ninja...he's not supposed to be predictable! While it does make interesting conversation, its not as important as what are you going to do when that happens.

 

[kaizasosei]

The soke is there to represent the veneration of the bujinkan house. It's ok to ask what will happen to bujinkan, i think. Takamatsusensei!! his spirit, is still here and alive in the memories and stories...i have heard of stories of hattori hanzo living for seven hundred years...was he always the same indidvidual. who knows, maybe there is such thing as reincarnation..? maybe not.
Just as takamatsusensei had chosen the best people to represent the art and spread these teachings of light and darkness, i trust hatsumisensei to also have a very good idea where the art that he himself raised up is going.

Is it in bad taste? It's a bit overanxious i find but it would depend how it is asked, by who and in what situation. Knowing ninjas and the state of their bodies and conciousness, i believe Hatsumisensei is not going anywhere for a while.







j

 

[elder999]

Most people would not answer the question.

I'm not questioning that, or anything else you said.

I'm pointing out that you, indeed, answered it.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I'm not questioning that, or anything else you said.

I'm pointing out that you, indeed, answered it.

If answering is explaining Japanese mannerism then yes I answered the question. If answering with explaining what will happen,what I think will happen then no I did not answer the question. I also want to point out that if a question was asked to a Japanese they might be silent which in itself is answering the question.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

The soke is there to represent the veneration of the bujinkan house. It's ok to ask what will happen to bujinkan, i think. Takamatsusensei!! his spirit, is still here and alive in the memories and stories...i have heard of stories of hattori hanzo living for seven hundred years...was he always the same indidvidual. who knows, maybe there is such thing as reincarnation..? maybe not.
Just as takamatsusensei had chosen the best people to represent the art and spread these teachings of light and darkness, i trust hatsumisensei to also have a very good idea where the art that he himself raised up is going.

Is it in bad taste? It's a bit overanxious i find but it would depend how it is asked, by who and in what situation. Knowing ninjas and the state of their bodies and conciousness, i believe Hatsumisensei is not going anywhere for a while.







j

I'm just going to have to ask what the hell you smoke and where I can get myself some of it. Hattori Hanzo did not live seven hundred years, because that would mean was born sometime in the 14th century. His name WAS passed on to his son, and his legacy has definitely survived well into this century. However, ninja aren't some superbeing with mystic powers that allows them to transcend the laws of physics and death. Sure, there's talk of kuji and the like scattered throughout the organization, and maybe there's some truth to that, but if that were the case, wouldn't it mean that Takamatsu O-sensei could still be alive. Let's face it, all people are bound by the same laws, and we will all die.

Ninja are not supermen, we're just the closest anyone's ever getting to it.

 

[jks9199]

You're missing my point. If it's considered bad manners and distasteful by Hatsumi and his followers to ask questions about the future leadership of the Bujinkan then fair enough. He considers it bad manners, I don't. As I stated before, I've asked the same question to other leaders in the martial arts community and they don't have a problem with it. I consider the question valid as if I choose to be a member, I would like to know where the association is being lead. It's really kind of mute with me and the Bujinkan, I wanted to find a study group for a while, but the lack of quality control is disturbing, so I'll pass.

If it's considered bad manners and distasteful in Japanese culture to ask such questions then again it doesn't really concern me because the Japanese have done awful things in the past that their culture has deemed proper. That was my point. What maybe bad manners to the Japanese, isn't necessarily bad manners to a lad like me and vice versa.

So, since the US supported and maintained slavery into the 1860s, it's OK for you to walk into my house and piss on the living room floor, right?

Not even close, huh?

The question of succession in the Bujinkan and of the various menkyo kaiden licenses to its component arts is fully in Hatsumi's hands. From some of my reading, it seems that Takamatsu named Hatsumi soke several years before his death; it's very possible that Hatsumi will do the same, in that case. Or that he has already defined the manner of his succession and that the appropriate people are aware of it.

But, even if you train in the Bujinkan, it's really not your business. Nor is it appropriate to so thoroughly disregard another culture's proprieties and discuss his death. He's very much alive, still teaching and still setting an example for his students, and all of their students. Learn as much as you can while you can, if you train in his arts. That's what you should concern yourself with... not who'll be his successor. (What are you going to do, find the successor and ingratiate yourself to them?)

 

[elder999]

. Or that he has already defined the manner of his succession and that the appropriate people are aware of it.

But, even if you train in the Bujinkan, it's really not your business.

Bingo.

 

[arnisador]

But, even if you train in the Bujinkan, it's really not your business.

I disagree. I don't train it it so it's not my business; but having seen what deaths at the top have done to other arts I've trained in (and even ones I haven't been involved with), and how it can sour one's experience, anyone investing time and money in this system has a stake in knowing whether it'll continue as a respected system after the current head's death, or splinter, or be put in the hands of someone less talented (compare what happened to Isshin-ryu when Kichiro Shimabuku was chosen over Angi Uezu, for example). If you train in the Bujinkan, this affects your future.

 

[yorkshirelad]

As for the question about Hatsumi passing. It is considered rude in Japanese etiquette to inquire when someone is going to die and what will happen to his fortune. In America it can be seen just as rude asking about that question as well depending on the context and how much your mouth is drooling(think inheritance)

Yes, I would consider it rude to inquire as to when someone was going to die aso. My question was, "What will happens when Hatsumi passes?" Maybe I should've used the word retires instead, but according to Chris, in the Japanese context this would be rude also. It's good for me to get a head's up about this, but no offense was intended to begin with. There is a huge chasm between what is correct in Japan and what is correct here or in Europe.

Ed Parker was asked an numerous occasions about successorship and (from what I've heard) didn't take offense and actually answered the question.

As for Tanemura and Hatsumi profitting from their arts, I don't have a problem with it. When you put decades of learning/dedication/training in you are more than entitled to get something out of it. My point is that we should understand this and not treat the respective grandmasters as demi-gods or all knowing seers.

I'm glad Tanemura has an abundance in his life. It's good to know that hard work and perseverance pays off. The same applies for Hatsumi, but sometimes I see a cult like mentality among practitioners that, to me seems somewhat creepy.

 

[yorkshirelad]

If answering is explaining Japanese mannerism then yes I answered the question. If answering with explaining what will happen,what I think will happen then no I did not answer the question. I also want to point out that if a question was asked to a Japanese they might be silent which in itself is answering the question.

JCA, you are indeed knowlegeable about Japanese culture. If you are not Japanese would you please answer the question asked in the OP?

 

[yorkshirelad]

So, since the US supported and maintained slavery into the 1860s, it's OK for you to walk into my house and piss on the living room floor, right?

I'm assuming by this comment that you are black (I could be wrong).Is that an American, cultural protocol, I mean for a white guy to piss on the living room floor of a black guy? I assure you that I would muh rather use the toilet.

 

[jks9199]

I'm assuming by this comment that you are black (I could be wrong).Is that an American, cultural protocol, I mean for a white guy to piss on the living room floor of a black guy? I assure you that I would muh rather use the toilet.

My point was that you cannot use the wrongs committed by one culture (or more accurately, one segment of one culture) to justify your own insensitivity or rudeness. A point that does seem to be eluding you.

 

[elder999]

I disagree. I don't train it it so it's not my business; but having seen what deaths at the top have done to other arts I've trained in (and even ones I haven't been involved with), and how it can sour one's experience, anyone investing time and money in this system has a stake in knowing whether it'll continue as a respected system after the current head's death, or splinter, or be put in the hands of someone less talented (compare what happened to Isshin-ryu when Kichiro Shimabuku was chosen over Angi Uezu, for example). If you train in the Bujinkan, this affects your future.

There have been cases of this happening in arts where the successor was named and known to all seniors while the head was still among the living. It's human nature, and you really can't worry over much about it, especially if you're not in that heirarchy.

Or, to paraphrase someone: Shut up and train.

 

[elder999]

JCA, you are indeed knowlegeable about Japanese culture. If you are not Japanese would you please answer the question asked in the OP?

He already has.

 

[yorkshirelad]

My point was that you cannot use the wrongs committed by one culture (or more accurately, one segment of one culture) to justify your own insensitivity or rudeness. A point that does seem to be eluding you.

But that's just it mate, my initial question was neither insensitive or rude. For instance, if I was living in the 18th century and had an audience with Washington at Mount Vernon and expressed that maybe it was wrong of him to own slaves, then maybe my statement would've been considered rude, but times change. The Japanese used Tameshigiri on the necks of POWs because they considered it culturally sound as these men had committed the ultimate no no and surrendered and all this was less than a century ago. All I'm saying is that what maybe rude to one culture is perfectly acceptible to another. If I lived, worked and interacted with the Japanese on a regular basis, I would've been aware of this, but I don't so I have not bee (until now).

Again, I thought it would be interesting to get various opinions on how The Bujinkan would be when Hatsumi is no longer here to lead. The same question has been asked of Martiasl Arts leaders in the past (to their face) and the question was answered without offense. It's not like I walked up to Hatsumi and said "When you croke, can I be Soke?" I believe I've asked a valid question. A question on an predominantly English speaking forum founded i the US, with it's member base largely in the US and Europe.

 

[yorkshirelad]

It's human nature, and you really can't worry .

It's not worrying, I just thought it was an interesting question, but again if I was anactive member, who paid dues and cared about the art, I would like to know in which direction the art was heading. Again, I'm not Japanese, so maybe I should find a feudal European system and go around dressed as a knight. I will look for a legitimate master at the next Renaissance Fair

 

[Carol]

I know someone that hired a gentleman in to a position that requires a lot of driving. Some months in to the job, the man requested a transfer to a different position, stating that medically, they could not do the job anymore.

The person's boss is in my business networking group and wondered why this issue didn't come up before? The man stated that they had the medical issue for awhile, and had done plenty of driving in the past, and initially saw no reason why they couldn't drive for a living.

It wasn't until the man was in the role for a good amount of time that he realized that driving for a living was not something he could do safely...and he was just as disappointed as his manager was with the news.


Regardless of what plans the organization has -- as far as I know they have been silent, which is their right -- we won't know what happens until the folks in the org have to live the circumstances of an org without Dr. Hatsumi. Maybe it will stay consolidated, maybe it will fracture, maybe something entirely different. Only time will tell.

As Arnisador mentioned, there have been many instances in the past where an organization has fractured after the death of a charismatic soke. However, I think its important to note that the fracturing of an organization has not resulted in the death of an art or system, nor has it resulted in an environment where the practitioners could not continue to learn and grow.

One way or another the folks in the Bujinkan will...keep going.

 

[yorkshirelad]

One way or another the folks in the Bujinkan will...keep going.

As may "Thanks" is not working, I'll give you a QFT Carol.