When did same-gender relations become "wrong"?

[Bob Hubbard]

Two words: Rob Halford...

Jeff

Never was much of a priest fan....

 

[7starmantis]

Even in Proverbs, we see reference to the goddess Wisdom.

Would you mind pointing me to that reference as well? Sorry, I hadn't heard that and I'd like to remember it.

7sm

 

[Kreth]

Never was much of a priest fan....

I saw him (with his solo band, Halford) open for Queensryche/Maiden on the Brave New World tour in MSG. Three of the best singers in metal, IMO. Plus, it can't hurt the gay community to have someone like Rob out there, definitely goes against the usual stereotypes...

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I recall a discussion I had a ways back, that refered to a Hebrew Goddess. I'll be checking my links as I do recall tagging it for revisiting....

Jeff,
I recall there beign a big stink when Rob finally came out, some issues with the label, etc. Don't follow the metal scene like I used to, but would you say that same-gender relationships are accepted more/less/or the same as the average of society?

 

[Kreth]

Don't follow the metal scene like I used to, but would you say that same-gender relationships are accepted more/less/or the same as the average of society?

AFAIK, Rob is still the only openly gay "big name" in the metal scene. I think now the fans come from two groups, the inbred morons who will stop buying albums because "the singer's a fag, dude" and the real fans who don't care as long as he keeps making good music.

Jeff

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Geoff Tate of Ryche...one of the best vocalists in metal.

Two words for the best vocalist ever: Freddie Mercury. Name of the band?

Mellissa: Get a grip. Part of human nature is to seek love wher'er the heart whilst. Supressing that nature with imposed moral codes is partly what has led to the intense social stigma regarding same-gender relations. Do you know the prevalence of substance abuse and suicide among gay or bi-sexual populations? Domestic violence? Some have used the stats that do exist to show "That there proves them all are a bunch of F'd up pups". I offer this as an alternate hypothesis: How much ambient pressure can a mind endure before it begins to cave to the demands of stress, anxiety, etc? What if, everywhere you went, and everything you did, you were glared at by disapproving eyes? If your friends and family abandoned you strictly because you followed the desires of your heart?

While I was in Italy, they had a great saying: The heart wants what the heart wants. They were far more tolerant of extramarital liasons, etc. And to dine with them, a much happier genre of folk.

Prejuice raises it's head in many forms, and all are ugly. Another part of human nature is "gallows humor"...to find the joyful & ludricous in otherwise somber circumstances. Will you set a social pariah against those who express this aspect of human nature? Same disease; different application. If it's all the same to you, you keep your disease, and I'll keep my inappropriate sense of humor.

I am (unfortunately, perhaps) straight. Working in Alternative Medicine, I have many professional contacts, and dear friends, who are gleefully as gay as the day is long. I've also tried to help as many have passed from this world, slipping off the plate before their fullness of years, then battled with trying to find a church to hold services in because their lifestyles were unholy and well-known. Additionally, when "gay bashing" was at a peak in Laguna Beach, CA (the So. Cali. gay mecca) in the early and mid '80's, I stuck myself out there to get between the punkers and the guys that were just trying to hook up, and have nasty scars for defending those who refused to defend themselves (one gentleman called me "crusader rabbit", and the nickname stuck for eons)...not to be a bravado, hollywood-action adrenaline junkie, but because what was happening was wrong, and the local PD wasn't up for doing much about it (after all, the victims of these hate crimes were in a park past curfew, and shouldn't be there anyway). I suggest you check yourself before checking me; context is everything.

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This is not what I want to see in the study. Keep it polite, or keep it private - Flatlander

Again with the attempts at regulating social behavior though disapproval. How many of you actually have spent any time with a gay man or woman? Gone partying at a gender-bender bar? (or were you too nervous you might be tempted to switch teams?) The best ribbings you will ever get are from those living outside the box. What gall to sanction behavior on the behalf of people whose lives are challenged daily because of behavioral sanctions.

Dave

 

[jfarnsworth]

I think the guys hiding are those with all the body builder and wrestler posters everywhere.....Then again, maybe bisexuality is really prevalient in the martial arts....

Hey now, watch it! :uhyeah:

 

[Cruentus]

This is not what I want to see in the study. Keep it polite, or keep it private - Flatlander

Again with the attempts at regulating social behavior though disapproval. How many of you actually have spent any time with a gay man or woman? Gone partying at a gender-bender bar? (or were you too nervous you might be tempted to switch teams?) The best ribbings you will ever get are from those living outside the box. What gall to sanction behavior on the behalf of people whose lives are challenged daily because of behavioral sanctions.

Dave

Dave,

I feel it was in poor taste to quote flatlanders private rep point comments on a public thread; it has nothing to do with the thread, plus it was private communication.

I think that if you disagreed with the comment you should have taken it PM, and kept the thread on topic...

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Now that I have read this thread (and been sucked into it), here are my comments;

1. Priesthood: I have yet to see any real evidence that there is this great homosexual epidemic in the priesthood, beyond of course heresay, made up statistics, and illogical assumptions. I think that the idea that "all/most/alot of priests are fags" is more of a result of a culture that buys into talkshow and daytime T.V. pseudo-psychology and spirituality; that "everyone was made for somebody" and "everybody has a soul-mate" and "one needs a mate to be complete" and so on and happy-go-luckily so on, and insert recent divorce rate here:__. The idea that some people are happy to be alone, and that maybe everybody doesn't have a soulmate, and that, heck, you just might not be a lesser person if your decide to remain single all your life slaps this pseudo-psychology in the face. Taking a vow of celebacy in the priesthood (or elseware for that matter) slaps this pseudo-psychology in the face as well.

This, added with a few scandels and problems, must mean that anyone who wants to be celebate MUST secretly be gay. Umm, ya...makes perfect sense...

If one can present real evidence that there is a "epidemic," something I have yet to see in these discussions, then I would be happy to look at it and have a logical conversation.

2. Homosexuality and it's "wrongness":

I don't know what we mean by 'wrong' here. I think we have to define "wrong" before we can have a real conversation on this.

I think that there are some major 'politically incorrect' details that many extreme "gay rights activists" tend to miss. One is that homosexuals have ALWAYS been a minority group. For the majority, gay sex has always been, well, undesirable by the general populus. Evidence through the written word as far back as it goes seems to have proved this. Now, if you can name, with proof, anytime in history when the general populus didn't consider it kinda gross (for example) for one dude to do another dude in the poop-shoot, then I'll go outside and make snow angels in the nude. :barf: :flushed:

Many people want to paint this picture that everyone was running around in Athens happily screwing one another regardless of gender until the damn Christian right came along and ruined the toy party. Sorry, but I think that this is a pretty incorrect view of history. :bs1:

So, if "wrong" means "undesirable by the general public," then I would say that homosexuality has ALWAYS been "wrong."

Now, if "wrong" means "a threat to our society," then yes, then we can probably blame the Christian right. It would seem that many cultures have been tolerant and accepting of homosexual behavior in history (which is not the same as "desirable" btw).

It seems that intolerant judeo-christians (not all christians, just intolerant ones) seem to have been the forerunners of persecution towards homosexuals and homosexual behavior, and have been the creators of the idea that homosexual behavior will somehow ruin our society. I've yet to see any logical evidence where a "gay epidemic" has ruined any society in history; and if you can name an instance, then it's naked time and snow angels for me.

I wish that activists for any cause (gay rights or otherwise) would stop being so extreme to where they feel they have to outright make stuff up; it only pushes people away. I also really REALLY wish that certian christian anti-gay rights people would realize that you don't have to find homosexual behavior desireable, nor do you even have to agree with it morally, to be tolerant, or to let individuals live their lives the way that they want without persecution.

I also wish I could do snow angels in the nude without getting arrested...but I guess I'll just have to dream..... :lookie:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

How many of you actually have spent any time with a gay man or woman?

Every year at the Toronto Trek convention, plus other events from that particular area of interest that occur throughout the year. A number of my friends from that con are involved somehow in the gay community. I also do have at least 2 clients who are.

We also have at least 5 bi/gay members that I am aware of here.

Gone partying at a gender-bender bar? (or were you too nervous you might be tempted to switch teams?)

Would hitting the room party of the Queer Continueum at the last 2 TorontoTreks count? (They have the best snack bar outta all the room parties there!)

The best ribbings you will ever get are from those living outside the box.

I'll avoid most of the stories..they will disturb some folks...one of the best involves me at a local radio station doing a GoldDust impression. For those not into pro-wrestling, GoldDust was a very 'flaming' character in the WWF several years back (I think this is like 6/7). The short version: I did the voice perfectly, as well as the mannerisms. The co-host of the radio show left, too weirded out to continue. The sound booth guys were dying laughing. The dumb jocks phoned in that they were coming down to 'straighten out that fag'. (Yeah, like a local college radio show will get a top tier superstar in for an interview....) The host of the show wouldn't speak to me for a year afterwards. (Turns out, I did the shtick too well. LOL)

Best part? The jocks walking in as I was walking out wanting to know where GoldDust was. Little-peepee syndrome at it's finest.

What gall to sanction behavior on the behalf of people whose lives are challenged daily because of behavioral sanctions.

Dave

Dave, Speaking as a member, not staff here...I think there is a misunderstanding.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Dave,

I feel it was in poor taste to quote flatlanders private rep point comments on a public thread; it has nothing to do with the thread, plus it was private communication.

I think that if you disagreed with the comment you should have taken it PM, and kept the thread on topic...

Paul

Perhaps you are correct, and if so, I apologize for the loss of decorum. I have not been familiar with the idea of the rep point system being private. I did percieve the act as a judgemental irony relative to the context of the thread, and sought to address it as such. I will refrain from such replies in the future in honor of "thread drift", and the privacy of the rep point system.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul,
The idea od you, doing nude snow angels.....dude, wouldn't you suffer from 'shrinkage'? :rofl:

As to the 'When was it accepted'....that is simple.
Up to at least the 1st century AD.

Classical Greek culture was not only tolerant of homosexuality, it embraced it.

The most well known form of homosexuality was pederasty, where an older male teacher would take on a younger male student to teach him hunting, warfare and other adult male skills.

This isn't the only documented homosexuality in ancient Greek culture. In his book, The Construction of Homosexuality, the NYU Institute for Law and Society professor David Greenberg writes "in Greece, sexual preferences were frequently not exclusive." Not only were they not exclusive, they were not deemed immoral, or something that would reflect poorly on those whose sexual preferences were exclusive. Well-known figures of the time such as Julius Caesar, granted he was Roman, were known as "every woman's husband, and every man's wife." [Cato]

See http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/Greeks.html for an interesting look at some of the concepts.

 

[7starmantis]

Two words for the best vocalist ever: Freddie Mercury. Name of the band?

My thoughts exactly!!! Queen rocked them all, and quite openly gay as well.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

Dude...Bob...

The sources used for that site above are identical to what groups like NAMBLA use to justify sex with young boys. And, like groups like NAMBLA, that site seems to be only choosing to recognize the facts that fit their agenda and worldview rather then recognizing the whole picture.

In Dovers "Greek Homosexuality", he also explains that pederasty was not a cultural norm; it was something that only the very privledged took part in. Remember, a lot of ancient Greek and Roman lifestyles of the Rich and Famous involved hedonistic indulgance and control of others; eating all day and barfing frequently in vomitoriums, and being catered too by many slaves, for instance. Orgies, dominating another sexes, and dominating the same sex was all part of the egomaniacal control of Greek Royalty. This was also explained in Dover. So, because their is evidence that the Rich did it (and we still don't know if the motive was same-sex preference or dominance or some other reason), and had their spiritual advisors create religious beliefs around it, Homosexuality was certianly more acceptable. However, pederasty was not a common practice among the majority, nor is there any evidence that homosexuality was a mainstream practice among the majority in any of these studies. Most reputable scholars on the subject will say the same thing I am saying here.

But, I guess if one only sees what one wants to see, then sure...life was one big orgy with fat hairy men and preteenaged boys frolicing in the meadows until the Christians spoiled all the fun...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul,
Yeah....I missed adding the quotes in on that...

Everything between "Classical Greek culture was not only tolerant of homosexuality, it embraced it." and "See http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/Greeks.html for an interesting look at some of the concepts." should have been in quotes.

My point is that regardless of the 'depth', it wasn't "evil", it just "was", if that makes sence. (As to the NAMBLA folks.....that is definately 1 group I have no tolerence for.)

 

[Cruentus]

My point is that regardless of the 'depth', it wasn't "evil", it just "was", if that makes sence.

O.K.; I can agree to that. The Greeks were definatily more excepting and tolerant of homosexuality.

What I wonder is if there were other religions that considered it unexceptable besides Judeo-Christian ones... :idunno:

 

[Melissa426]

?

Mellissa: Prejuice raises it's head in many forms, and all are ugly. Another part of human nature is "gallows humor"...to find the joyful & ludricous in otherwise somber circumstances. Will you set a social pariah against those who express this aspect of human nature? Same disease; different application. If it's all the same to you, you keep your disease, and I'll keep my inappropriate sense of humor.


Dave

Because I object to what I feel was "school boy" name-calling, and I thought your so called "gallows humor" wasn't funny, now I am prejudiced?

GGA.

The statistics I brought up about priests were from Time or Newsweek. I didn't make them up, although it might be argued that the reporters of that magazine drew 'em out of a hat.

Speaking re my particular "sky-god", my church welcomes all people including gays and lesbians, but that doesn't mean we accept their lifestyle. Nor will we allow them to marry or be ordained ministers. Please don't start flaming me. Church politics and disciplines belong in a different thread.

PS. I have friends who live way out in the country in the middle of nowhere. Tulisan can make all the naked snow angels he wants. (of course, we don't really have snow here, yet. But naked mud angels might be fun)

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Makalakumu]

We have talked about the greeks and their openly accepted gay lifestyles, but lets not neccessarily combine the lifestyles of being gay with being bi-sexual.

I don't think that you can separate the two. I personally believe that being Gay or Strait falls on a spectrum. Bisexual is in the middle of the spectrum and there are very few people who really exist on both ends. Annecdotally, this makes sense. Most Gay people I know still find people of the opposite sex attractive in the same way that most Strait people I know are able to differentiate between an attractive member of their sex and one who is not.

Also, as Bob earlier pointed out, the two guys icky crowd is usually pro two girls or even two guys and one girl...aka the line is blurred.

 

[7starmantis]

I wouldn't say that a guy who likes the idea of two women together is necessarily bisexual; I think that is an incorrect assumption. That argument doesn't blur the lines. It’s not whether your pro "two girls" or "two guys icky" we are talking about active participation, not watching. Also, I don’t think being gay is defined the way you describe it. Finding someone of the same sex attractive is a gross understatement to what being gay is. Just because someone who is gay finds a person of the opposite sex to be "attractive" isn't pushing them into the bisexual "group". I like to look at impressionist paintings, but I don’t consider myself an impressionist painter. Every friend I've had that is gay (male or female) has definitely make distinctions between being gay and being bisexual. You made my point yourself, if the gay person is able to find a person of opposite sex attractive in the same way that a straight person can differentiate between people of the same sex, then that means nothing, unless your saying the straight person who can say a person of the same sex is attractive is now gay or bisexual. That person doesn’t cease to be straight, so the gay person in our scenario wouldn't cease to be gay or turn bisexual. We are talking about a complete sexual preference, not just finding someone attractive. I think that is playing down what being gay is, and most people I know that are gay would disagree with you.

7sm