What's wrong with competitive Taekwondo/MA?

[Dirty Dog]

Personally, I think the analogy with boxing is a good one. Boxing doesn't allow kicks; does that mean that learning boxing is irrelevant to learning self-defense? I wouldn't think so. I would think somebody who trains in boxing can probably defend themselves better than somebody who doesn't train in anything at all. Likewise, somebody who trains in sport taekwondo can probably defend themselves better than somebody who doesn't train in anything at all.

So then, it seems to me, the question becomes this: as you go around looking at martial arts, trying to decide which one to study, are you going to just pick the one that's best for self-defense? If so, that's fine, but there are other reasons to study martial arts too (sport, exercise, recreation, hobby, family activity, etc.)

That's easy. I don't think anybody will argue against me on this.

The best self defense is either Chic-Chic-POW or, possibly, Ameri Do Te.

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's easy. I don't think anybody will argue against me on this.

The best self defense is either Chic-Chic-POW or, possibly, Ameri Do Te.

Always thought it was Ching Ching Pow.

Run Fu / Nike Jitsu are favs as well.

 

[wingchun100]

And therein lies one difference between a martial art and a martial sport. I practice and teach lots of things that are not allowed in a sport context. I suspect most of the teachers here do the same.

Right, but I was trying to present the OP with an argument against competitive TKD that was not the traditional "you can't use it as self-defense." The only way it becomes a problem is if a student comes to a tournament-heavy school and wants to learn it for self-defense, not competition...but then again that isn't the school's problem; that is the STUDENT'S problem. It isn't your fault you teach something they don't like.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm hoping to go a little deeper than "WTF players don't punch to the face" or "sport does not equal self-defense" with this discussion.

What are the drawbacks of teaching MA in a competitive/sport environment?

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If the school is geared towards competition, what would be wrong with teaching competitive sport MA's? It would fall to the school to teach the proper discipline, respect and courtesy required for such a pursuit. But there are no drawbacks in-and-of-itself if it is clearly expressed that the goal and training is geared for sporting competition.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And therein lies one difference between a martial art and a martial sport. I practice and teach lots of things that are not allowed in a sport context. I suspect most of the teachers here do the same.

Which is why a school needs to be clear in what the training is geared towards. It is those that claim to offer both, yet use the same training methodology that muddle up the whole thing.

 

[skribs]

What I mean is that there are certain strikes you aren't allowed to use in a tournament. If you don't practice them, you won't be any good at them when you need them.

Conversely, if all you do is practice those strikes (which would significantly damage someone if practiced on them, so they're only practiced shadowboxing/bag work) then you won't be able to easily use them against a lie opponent.

 

[WaterGal]

I wouldn't say these are necessarily problems or "whats wrong" with it, but here are two generalizations.

1. Martial Arts may focus on personal growth, while competition focuses more on winning.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, if the teacher has good ethics and fosters an environment of friendly and supportive competition. It's when you have schools that put winning over ethics (having black belts compete as color belts, etc) or that teach competition as being about tearing other people down rather than about improving yourself, that you have a conflict there.

I don't know whether sport-focused schools (of whatever style) have more problems with that than others... I've seen some pretty rotten behavior from non-KKW folks. I think really it has more to do with the teacher.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think one danger of a competitive environment is the potential to isolate or exclude less talented members.

There is also a possibility that results(wins and losses) become the most important thing, when the performance it self should be what counts, regardless of results.

I agree with Watergal that the sportsmanship issues are people issues rather than environment issues.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Conversely, if all you do is practice those strikes (which would significantly damage someone if practiced on them, so they're only practiced shadowboxing/bag work) then you won't be able to easily use them against a lie opponent.

That is why you also practice them in sparring, or similar exercises, which is against a live opponent.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Conversely, if all you do is practice those strikes (which would significantly damage someone if practiced on them, so they're only practiced shadowboxing/bag work) then you won't be able to easily use them against a lie opponent.

I can't think of any techniques that can't ever be practiced on a partner. Sure, you might need to decrease the force or speed, but you can still practice...

 

[K-man]

That's easy. I don't think anybody will argue against me on this.

The best self defense is either Chic-Chic-POW or, possibly, Ameri Do Te.

Always thought it was Ching Ching Pow.

Run Fu / Nike Jitsu are favs as well.

Come on guys ... get it right.

It's Chk, Chk, Boom!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1MZffvS0yDo

:rofl:

 

[WaterGal]

I can't think of any techniques that can't ever be practiced on a partner. Sure, you might need to decrease the force or speed, but you can still practice...

I don't think it's safe to do a knife hand strike to the neck or elbow to the face with even light power.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't think it's safe to do a knife hand strike to the neck or elbow to the face with even light power.

You can think that if you like, but it certainly can be done. A knifehand to the neck is not particularly dangerous even with moderate power. The throat is far more likely to result in injury.
And of course, the knifehand is the technique. The target is irrelevant. Throwing the knifehand to the neck, forehead, side of the head, or arm will give you the same practice.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Michael89]

I always train myself in self defense and sport side of taekwondo like a yin/yang. i think that is problem because they don't really teach philosophy enough about it. I learned little of karate as well.

 

[WaterGal]

You can think that if you like, but it certainly can be done. A knifehand to the neck is not particularly dangerous even with moderate power. The throat is far more likely to result in injury.
And of course, the knifehand is the technique. The target is irrelevant. Throwing the knifehand to the neck, forehead, side of the head, or arm will give you the same practice.

If you're not training to hit a specific target (e.g., the carotid artery, which if injured can cause stroke, paralysis or even death), but rather just to practice the motion, than hitting a heavy bag will give you just as much practice, only you can go all out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you're not training to hit a specific target (e.g., the carotid artery, which if injured can cause stroke, paralysis or even death), but rather just to practice the motion, than hitting a heavy bag will give you just as much practice, only you can go all out.

When training specific targets, I use a BOB for full force, and control with partners. And I've done so, safely, for about 40 years.
The idea that any particular techniques are "too dangerous" to practice is just ludicrous.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you're not training to hit a specific target (e.g., the carotid artery, which if injured can cause stroke, paralysis or even death), but rather just to practice the motion, than hitting a heavy bag will give you just as much practice, only you can go all out.

That's the beauty of non-contact sparring/training, you can practice these things full power against a live partner and develop dynamic accuracy (I think i just made up a term) and then practice full impact strikes on the pads and bags.

 

[drop bear]

The issue is the null game. Sport is over engendered for self defence. If you oponant is as good as you are you have to develop more and more left field strategies to compete. And to be really gamey sometimes the basics are out of favor in place with the more succesfull tournament gimics.

It is not a complete compromise but something to be mindfull of.

The null game is where an attack is so well defended that it make the attack low percentage. The submission game is going this way. So people favour lay and pray rather than working for something. It also means you have to train bulk submissions not so you can use them but so they are removed as an option in competition.

 

[drop bear]

That's easy. I don't think anybody will argue against me on this.

The best self defense is either Chic-Chic-POW or, possibly, Ameri Do Te.

Seem to me more people have been in fist fights than defensive shooting.

 

[Hand Sword]

I'm thinking more from an educator's point of view. I'm not really looking to make this yet another "art vs. sport" thread, but people can take things whatever direction they like, I suppose.

I'm interested in what people think is negative about competitive sport environments as it relates to the context of martial arts instruction.

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Your quote says it all. Martial (Warfare) Arts (to become skillfull at) are not gained through "sport." If one wants sports or competition, then why choose the martial arts when so many other choices exist? There is nothing sporting about self defence. Besides, reading the works of the old masters and founders, they were against the competitve stuff. It waters down the art by making rules and changing the mind set and focus.