What's wrong with American Kenpo?

[drop bear]

Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.

Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.

Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.

sort of. Some styles of Thai don't have much head movement. But the do angle in and out which makes up for it.

now if you are like that kempo vid and combine no and bad head movement with no footwork. Then yes you would want a pretty iron chin.

So you could probably neaten up that kempo without demanding they become boxers. A lot of their structure does not seem logical at its finer points.

 

[Touch Of Death]

sort of. Some styles of Thai don't have much head movement. But the do angle in and out which makes up for it.

now if you are like that kempo vid and combine no and bad head movement with no footwork. Then yes you would want a pretty iron chin.

So you could probably neaten up that kempo without demanding they become boxers. A lot of their structure does not seem logical at its finer points.

Holy Cow! No. Boxing is the complete opposite of the finer points of Kempo.

 

[drop bear]

Holy Cow! No. Boxing is the complete opposite of the finer points of Kempo.

Only if you think boxing is jab,cross,hook,uppercut.

So for example in that kempo vid. The guy slips backwards. Now i cant tell you that unless you have kicked at the same time. Someone will eventually figure out that you just cant keep doing that. And will bash you.

so you would employ a common principle of boxing and do something else.

But then you don't have to follow a boxing alternative you can do your own thing achieving the same result.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Only if you think boxing is jab,cross,hook,uppercut.

So for example in that kempo vid. The guy slips backwards. Now i cant tell you that unless you have kicked at the same time. Someone will eventually figure out that you just cant keep doing that. And will bash you.

so you would employ a common principle of boxing and do something else.

But then you don't have to follow a boxing alternative you can do your own thing achieving the same result.

Boxing is the finer points of one range, and Kenpo is supposed to be the finer points of every range. That means you are correct at one range but wrong on the others; so, Like Benny The Jet Urquidez says, "At wrestling range I'm a wrestler; at boxing range I'm a boxer; at kicking range, I am TKD". It was a very diplomatic thing to say but there was a Kenpo truth in that statement.

 

[drop bear]

In fact having a think. You could combine that kempo drill with maywhethers. In that he fires his first shot. Then you go all combination on him. He fires a second shot where you evade shift angles and come back in.

Now you haven't changed the style just addressed two issues with it.

What if he actually fights back?

What if you are the one eating the flurry of shots.

 

[drop bear]

Boxing is the finer points of one range, and Kenpo is supposed to be the finer points of every range. That means you are correct at one range but wrong on the others; so, Like Benny The Jet Urquidez says, "At wrestling range I'm a wrestler; at boxing range I'm a boxer; at kicking range, I am TKD". It was a very diplomatic thing to say but there was a Kenpo truth in that statement.

ok lets look at this boxing exit strategy ideas.

why would the concepts not work at kicking and wrestling ranges?

Could you apply those exits to kempo?

 

[Touch Of Death]

ok lets look at this boxing exit strategy ideas.

why would the concepts not work at kicking and wrestling ranges?

Could you apply those exits to kempo?

I would call those Kenpo front covers with a very bad angle on the back foot.

 

[drop bear]

I would call those Kenpo front covers with a very bad angle on the back foot.

provided you can make those direction changes when you need them. The back foot does not matter.
(for this discussion)

 

[Touch Of Death]

provided you can make those direction changes when you need them. The back foot does not matter.
(for this discussion)

Oh, hell no. You'd be surprised at what a little directional harmony can do for your kenpo.

 

[Tiger84]

I'm not a Kempoist but my guess is that the black belt marks the point where one becomes a teacher of the art. I don't find it that unreasonable to test someone on their knowledge of the history, philosophy, dynamics, and points of contention of the system before they are deemed a "representative" of the art.

Black belt marks the beginning of your true journey. Just think of it as an advanced white belt, being the study of motion there is always something new to learn.

 

[Tiger84]

It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for. I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there. Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much. Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

they're "ideal phase techniques" take what you learned and apply them to sparring. I swear there seems to be no proper guidance these days

 

[Tiger84]

why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.

Kenpoists like to keep their feet on the ground and we generally don't kick above the waist for that reason but as long as you follow the rules I'm sure you could stick in some high kicks.

 

[Tiger84]

Should every black belt be able to teach?

You'd be surprised what you can learn by teaching others.

 

[Blindside]

they're "ideal phase techniques" take what you learned and apply them to sparring. I swear there seems to be no proper guidance these days

Please show some video examples of kenpoists sparring, preferably with reasonable contact that looks vaguely like ideal phase techniques.

 

[Tiger84]

Please show some video examples of kenpoists sparring, preferably with reasonable contact that looks vaguely like ideal phase techniques.

That would be hard to do since no one is recording themselves doing it. It is unreasonable to think your going to pull off an entire technique while sparing. That is not the lesson to be learned here, ideal phase is exactly that... Ideal. Your not going to get a setup while sparring that is going to look exactly like a technique, however you should be able to recognize the position you're in and act accordingly. We learn the techniques so we can pull them apart and use whatever fits moment to moment. If you get them to commit enough to the attack you may end up with something that looks like a blend of a couple different techniques. Really the only decent thing I can find online that sorta tackles this is a video of a guy using a flow drill to gain an entrance on his opponent to stick in standard-ish techniques.

 

[Blindside]

That would be hard to do since no one is recording themselves doing it. It is unreasonable to think your going to pull off an entire technique while sparing. That is not the lesson to be learned here, ideal phase is exactly that... Ideal. Your not going to get a setup while sparring that is going to look exactly like a technique, however you should be able to recognize the position you're in and act accordingly. We learn the techniques so we can pull them apart and use whatever fits moment to moment. If you get them to commit enough to the attack you may end up with something that looks like a blend of a couple different techniques. Really the only decent thing I can find online that sorta tackles this is a video of a guy using a flow drill to gain an entrance on his opponent to stick in standard-ish techniques.

Why isn't anyone recording what they are doing? Lots of people film their sparring now. I film all of my guys sparring matches so that they can go back and review and we can talk about what was good or bad.

I went to Kali after Kenpo, well, more like Kali took over from Kenpo, but whatever. I am a huge proponent of the energy drill as an intermediary training step between technique practice and sparring. I pointed out Zach Whitson's old "Kenpo Counterpoint" DVD as a benefit to a Kenpoist, he basically took his knowledge of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali energy drills and fused them with AK techniques, showing how to train it in this method. But because many Kenpoists don't get this intermediary step they have to jump straight from technique to sparring and it usually comes out poorly.

 

[Tiger84]

Why isn't anyone recording what they are doing? Lots of people film their sparring now. I film all of my guys sparring matches so that they can go back and review and we can talk about what was good or bad.

I went to Kali after Kenpo, well, more like Kali took over from Kenpo, but whatever. I am a huge proponent of the energy drill as an intermediary training step between technique practice and sparring. I pointed out Zach Whitson's old "Kenpo Counterpoint" DVD as a benefit to a Kenpoist, he basically took his knowledge of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali energy drills and fused them with AK techniques, showing how to train it in this method. But because many Kenpoists don't get this intermediary step they have to jump straight from technique to sparring and it usually comes out poorly.

Uh... Well, I couldn't say why other people aren't recording their sparring but for me there isn't any benifit unless I'm studying someone else to beat them. I do record myself doing forms but that's to look at my posture, weapon formation etc. but they're for training and not on the Internet. The bridge you speak of is in spontaneous techniques and freestyle techniques ,the flow drills can help with that as well. Sparring isn't about being "correct" it's about not getting hit (rule 1 don't block with your face). If students aren't getting this training then that's just really sad but ultimately it eventually becomes the students responsibility to start figuring stuff out for themselves. You have to make it "yours" and Mr. Parker didn't want a bunch of Parker clones, he wanted everyone to think for themselves and make it unique to them and if that means branching out to other systems that's just fine. Kenpo is a mixture of different systems anyway so looking elsewhere isn't discouraged, as long as you've properly learned the rules and concepts in the first place. One cannot just waive a wand and make everyone a good martial artist, it take many years of hard work and thought. If you do Kenpo long enough you should figure out that is all in the system if you know where to look. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[Michael Loughrie12343]

I don't know.

 

[Blindside]

Uh... Well, I couldn't say why other people aren't recording their sparring but for me there isn't any benifit unless I'm studying someone else to beat them.

You watch yourself sparring to figure out what you are doing wrong. Are you telegraphing? How are you telegraphing? How is your footwork? Distance control? Do you rely on one combination all the time, making you predictable? Are you getting good power into your reverse punch? Every professional sport films their players in practice and in action to critique later, it is an incredibly useful tool, it gives you that third person perspective that you can't see when you are doing it.

One cannot just waive a wand and make everyone a good martial artist, it take many years of hard work and thought. If you do Kenpo long enough you should figure out that is all in the system if you know where to look. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

But even the senior instructors don't make their kenpo look like the training techniques when they spar. Kickboxers don't look totally different from the way they train than the way they fight. Nor Judoka, wrestlers, boxers, fencers, or most of the HEMA guys. Why is it the Kenpo guys look so different? What does that say about the training method?

 

[Tames D]

What is wrong with American Kenpo? I cross trained in it for awhile. Overall I like it. But to answer the OP's question:

• Working a technique on an opponent that stands still sucks. React to the attack for Gods sake.
• Memorize a million techniques. And remember them all at each grading. Really?
• Too many 10th degree black belts that have no business wearing one around their waist.
• The old school Buffet Table. You Kenpo guys know what I'm talking about.