What's wrong with American Kenpo?

[Touch Of Death]

a modern and scientific combative art would take into account the studies and practices that we have learned over the last 50 years....
On Combat The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace Beyond Intractability

"There is a wide range of possible responses and experiences during extreme high stress events. Sharper focus, visual clarity, slow-motion time, temporary paralysis, dissociation, and intrusive thoughts can all occur. When dissociation (a detachment from physical and emotional reality) occurs, it may be a red flag for the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Loss of bladder and bowel control during moments of intensity is a common occurrence that is rarely discussed."

"Heart rate increase in response to fear is correlated with a deterioration of motor skills and senses like vision and hearing. Eventually cognitive abilities degrade to a point Grossman calls condition black (based off of work done by Bruce Siddle and Jeff Cooper). He gives conditions white, yellow, red, gray, and black, with white being unconcerned and black being overwhelmed. He believes high pressure situations call for condition yellow in which motor and cognitive skills are functioning at peak performance. Condition black is said to be when the heart rate gets above 175 beats per minute because of the influx of adrenaline from stress. At this point vasoconstriction, the tightening of the blood vessels, allows less oxygen to the brain. The mid-brain, the part we share with animals like dogs and bears, takes over. Rational thought goes out the window."

Training as realistically as possible is important. Repeated actions allow the warrior to act without thinking, as though they were on "autopilot". It is actually possible to be scared speechless. Rehearsing the appropriate words can prevent this from happening.

On Combat Media Violence

Dr. Artwohl’s research found that 74 percent of the officers involved in a deadly force encounter acted on automatic pilot. In other words, the actions of three out of four officers in combat were done without conscious thought.

Whatever is drilled in during training comes out the other end in combat--no more, no less
"Whatever you would make habitual, practise it; and if you would not make a thing habitual, do not practise it, but habituate yourself to something else."
- Epictetus (1st century A.D.)
How the Semblances of Things are to be Combated


with these in mind i would like to again state that there is nothing WRONG with kenpo. what is wrong... is my own expectations and the disconnect between my own personal needs and what kenpo has to offer. what i might find unexceptable will and could be exactly what the next person is looking for.



my individual focus is on what has now been coined as "reality self defense" . i prefer a martial art that has a minimal curriculum. i find kenpo has to much to remember. my own practice has only 3 kicks and few hand strikes. i want to train these few things until they become hard wired into my brain. studies have shown that during combat, more response choices slow the response time down considerably.

But the thing about kenpo, is that you are practicing the same thing, or "Sam Ting", over and over. It is a lesson many people miss.

 

[hoshin1600]

You have to realize why that was being said. It means there are no mystical forces at work. And, it means only that. Everything else is something you added.

of course these are my own opinions and my personal views ..that being said my belief and observations lead me to believe that Ed Parker made the statements about his art in an attempt to market his "new" art form. for many many years the age of an art was assumed to be a mark of authenticity and Mr Parker could not do this. any new art would be looked upon with suspicion and be viewed quite frankly as a scam. to his credit he took something that could have been a negative and turned it into a marketing advantage. but i believe its time to move on now and move forward.

 

[hoshin1600]

But the thing about kenpo, is that you are practicing the same thing, or "Sam Ting", over and over. It is a lesson many people miss.

im sorry i dont agree.
i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
countless blocks and unique movements.
God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.


i do understand your point, i just dont agree

 

[Touch Of Death]

im sorry i dont agree.
i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
countless blocks and unique movements.
God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.


i do understand your point, i just dont agree

Sounds like TKD Kanpo to me.

 

[Drose427]

im sorry i dont agree.
i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
countless blocks and unique movements.
God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.


i do understand your point, i just dont agree

The number of moves total is irrelevant. Everyone in every style has a handful they drill to the point of being "hard wired" as you put it. The rest are simply options that were available but didnt fit you.

 

[Hanzou]

There is a disconnect between sparring and forms and techs. Kenpoists do not look like how they train, generally they look like kickboxers on the sparring floor which is not at all what the forms and techs seem to advocate. When you look at martial arts that spar regularly as part of their training, they look like what their fundamentals advocate. I find a problem when much of the training is focusing on "stone statue" training, that is supposed to be a beginner step, not something you spend 5 years on.

Yeah, that's never a good sign.

I guess for me I never really understood what Kenpo was/is exactly. Everytime I read about it, it was like I was reading about a completely different art. And frankly, it just looked like Karate to me, so I didn't see what the big difference was. So I feel that a lack of a strong, unique identity is a big problem for the art.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah, that's never a good sign.

I guess for me I never really understood what Kenpo was/is exactly. Everytime I read about it, it was like I was reading about a completely different art. And frankly, it just looked like Karate to me, so I didn't see what the big difference was. So I feel that a lack of a strong, unique identity is a big problem for the art.

We have more Black Belts than kenpoists. LOL

 

[drop bear]

same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like. this clip is labeled as "speed" while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power. i call this slap and tickle. most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker. it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo. so i am familiar with the style. in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.

maywhether does slap and tickle style drills

 

[hoshin1600]

maywhether does slap and tickle style drills

by all means post the vid clip....so we can verify that and compare.

 

[drop bear]

 

[hoshin1600]

incredible head movement with the bob and weave. that is something i could never really get.

 

[drop bear]

incredible head movement with the bob and weave. that is something i could never really get.

And that is why he gets the pay check.

 

[Buka]

same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like. this clip is labeled as "speed" while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power. i call this slap and tickle. most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker. it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo. so i am familiar with the style. in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.

Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.

Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.

Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.

Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.

Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.

Bad videos don't prove anything but what the star of the video know about their art.

 

[Buka]

Bad videos don't prove anything but what the star of the video know about their art.

I completely agree. And I've had my *** handed to me by so many Kenpo guys I've lost count. Not one of them kept their head right there for the asking. Oh, how I wish they had.

 

[Hanzou]

incredible head movement with the bob and weave. that is something i could never really get.

Me neither.

That's why I went to grappling.

 

[hoshin1600]

The thing is that I wasn't trying to prove anything. I did a random Google search for kenpo and that's what came up. I used them as examples of things I don't like. If someone thinks they are "bad examples" then we agree. The OP asked what was wrong with kenpo. I preferred not to bash the system and only point out things I often see and don't like. I used Larry Tatum on purpose because he is a well known high ranked instructor.. so your saying he is not representative of the style? That the video he produced was a bad example? He thought it was good, he did put his name on it and sell it to the mass market.

 

[hoshin1600]

The clips I posted my not be representative of YOUR art but I used mutiple sources and random samples so they ARE a good representation of what kenpo is in general. I did not go through 100 good videos to find the one or two exceptions to skew and present a spin on the system.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The thing is that I wasn't trying to prove anything. I did a random Google search for kenpo and that's what came up. I used them as examples of things I don't like. If someone thinks they are "bad examples" then we agree. The OP asked what was wrong with kenpo. I preferred not to bash the system and only point out things I often see and don't like. I used Larry Tatum on purpose because he is a well known high ranked instructor.. so your saying he is not representative of the style? That the video he produced was a bad example? He thought it was good, he did put his name on it and sell it to the mass market.

The techniques are just one part of the art. He sells a package, and I think his moves look fine for what he is doing. There is a body standing just a bit too far away; so, you have an idea of where these strikes go. In real life, however, your opponent is bleeding and squirming and hitting back. Sometime they go areal. You won't see that in his vids. They are limited in that respect. So, no, that is in no way a representation of fighting, but they were beautiful technique sequences, Mini Forms, if you will.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The clips I posted my not be representative of YOUR art but I used mutiple sources and random samples so they ARE a good representation of what kenpo is in general. I did not go through 100 good videos to find the one or two exceptions to skew and present a spin on the system.

There is a disconnect here, but I need to leave, just now, but I will say those vids were of people practicing memorized sequences of motion, and is not Kenpo fighting.