What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling, or boxing?

[Gerry Seymour]

And yet it hasn't for a very, very, very long time.

If it was going to vanish it would already have done so. That's what makes it an art. Arts can't die. Can't even think of an art that ever really did.

Disco never really died. Hell, Keanu Reeves was just in a major Tai Chi Chuan movie not too long ago, and it wasn't even any of the Matrices.

It would be very un-Dao to separate the martial side, if you think about it. Can't ever happen.

I disagree. Many have already separated the martial side, and it’s an accelerating trend by its nature, since more and more people passing it along don’t possess that side of the art.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And yet it hasn't for a very, very, very long time.

If it was going to vanish it would already have done so. That's what makes it an art. Arts can't die. Can't even think of an art that ever really did.

Disco never really died. Hell, Keanu Reeves was just in a major Tai Chi Chuan movie not too long ago, and it wasn't even any of the Matrices.

It would be very un-Dao to separate the martial side, if you think about it. Can't ever happen.

i am not saying taiji will go away, never implied that. It is changing to a health exercise, no martial content. And the martial art known as taijiquan is virtually gone. If you look at all the questions I asked and answer them honestly, there are very very few who know anything about the martial side of taijiquan and many of those do not want to know. I have been training taijiquan for over 30 years, traditional Yang style taijiquan (Tung Ying Chieh lineage) for about 27 year and when I started traditional Yang it was a group of old MA warhorses. Even the way my shifu taught was martial arts heavy and at times painful. But as time passes we were replaced by those that did not want MA and those that had no idea of MA until I was tha last old warhorse standing. My Sifu tried to get people into the MA side, some got offended by the mention of “martial arts” for a time there was a group there that was offended by my presence for even bringing martial arts into their quiet peaceful moving meditation. One night my shifu and I talked and he told me I was his last serious student and as far as taijiquan went, he was retired. From that point on he would teach only form because that is all anyone wants… to learn the long from, call themselves master and go teach it someplace. After that he and I hung out after classes doing push hands, applications and some qinna.

now if that were the only place I have seen this, I would say ok, it’s isolated. But I have seen this non-martial taijiquan I every single class I have checked out, save one maybe two. The rest do not do it, or just play at it, or pretend the mystical magic makes them invincible. But they are only doing the health side. And I’m ok with that. It is when the health side gets offended and forces out the martial side, I get annoyed. I have taught classes where people literally get offended and walk out of class by the mention of martial arts, I have seen people get upset by my answers to their question about an application of a form. I had an entire school avoid me when they were looking for someon to teach push hands after several recommended me, reason given: I was to serious

in that 30 years I have trained Yang, Chen, Northern Wu, Sun and a few competition forms and sadly all are going or already gone the same way. Likely still more Chen schools doing martial arts, but it is becoming sanshou, not the martial side of taijiquan

taijiquan will be here for a long time, and there will be pockets of the legitimate martial side for a while longer. But real martial taijiquan is vanishing. There will be those that take the taiji postures and use what martial art the know, be that karate, wing chun, jujutsu, aikido and make it martial, but it will not be following the basic principles of taijiquan. Seen that too by the way. Funniest one was the guy claiming HE made taijiquan a martial art….he had no idea it ever was. And he was using 24 form

sun style is referred to as the old peoples taijiquan, but yet if you look at stills of Sun Lutang it is the most obviously martial art version of taijiquan that I have ever seen. But I have not seen one sun class even mention martial arts.

oh and the one teacher that I know that still teaches martial arts separated our from his regular classes, and it is his smallest class. He was a student of William CC Chen. The other that I think is still teaching the martial side, due to the fact breakfall training is part of the curriculum is the Wu family in Toronto (southern Wu).

ok, been awhile since I climbed up on the soap box on MT….or for that matter typed that much in one post on MT…but I will stop and get off the soap box now

 

[Oily Dragon]

I disagree. Many have already separated the martial side, and it’s an accelerating trend by its nature, since more and more people passing it along don’t possess that side of the art.

As far as natural accelerating trends, martial Tai Chi will outlive both of us, as will the rest of it, including the literature. That's because Tai Chi is really simple to learn, and pass on, whether it's used for martial arts or anything else. It's just a matter of study, and it's a very approachable and applicable philosophy of both daily living, and physical exercise.

There's so much to it, in fact, it's easy to forgive the vast majority who don't ever pursue martial arts. Some people just want to breath, or stand erect.

I sometimes wonder what Tai Chi students circa 1000AD thought about death, right about the time I'm in Zhan Zhuong land, aching. I had a thought the other day that I came to Tai Chi Chuan as a martial artist. I didn't seek it to learn to fight. That was probably the best way. It's been a very Dao experience so far.

 

[Oily Dragon]

i am not saying taiji will go away, never implied that. It is changing to a health exercise, no martial content. And the martial art known as taijiquan is virtually gone.

It started as a health exercise promoted by Daoist priests (and before them, wandering ascetics, so really, Tai Chi will always comes back to that, as it should. The martial content will always be the realm of the handful who train their bodies and minds to the point of balancing the extreme furies of the Taijitu, into the spiritual.

As far as TCC being "virtually gone", the opposite is true. TCC is literally "virtually" more available than ever in history, it just takes, as it always should, a keen eye to quality.

And thanks to the internet, China itself could vanish, and yet we'd have enough of TCC available to work with, assuming we'd never taken a class in it, but had basic hand to hand training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It started as a health exercise promoted by Daoist priests (and before them, wandering ascetics, so really, Tai Chi will always comes back to that, as it should. The martial content will always be the realm of the handful who train their bodies and minds to the point of balancing the extreme furies of the Taijitu, into the spiritual.

As far as TCC being "virtually gone", the opposite is true. TCC is literally "virtually" more available than ever in history, it just takes, as it always should, a keen eye to quality.

And thanks to the internet, China itself could vanish, and yet we'd have enough of TCC available to work with, assuming we'd never taken a class in it, but had basic hand to hand training.

It sounds as if you are basing historical taijiquan on unverified claims with no historical evidence and myth. If so then on this topic, we shall never agree

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far as natural accelerating trends, martial Tai Chi will outlive both of us, as will the rest of it, including the literature. That's because Tai Chi is really simple to learn, and pass on, whether it's used for martial arts or anything else. It's just a matter of study, and it's a very approachable and applicable philosophy of both daily living, and physical exercise.

There's so much to it, in fact, it's easy to forgive the vast majority who don't ever pursue martial arts. Some people just want to breath, or stand erect.

I sometimes wonder what Tai Chi students circa 1000AD thought about death, right about the time I'm in Zhan Zhuong land, aching. I had a thought the other day that I came to Tai Chi Chuan as a martial artist. I didn't seek it to learn to fight. That was probably the best way. It's been a very Dao experience so far.

sorry, do not agree, this is sounding to me to go into the realm of the mythical realm and belief in figure who cannot be historically proven to have existed. Not to mention if you look at those that talk about him as existing the times they claim he existed are vastly different. Which only leave another mythical claim of his existence as being immortal to describe the vastly different dates assigned to him. there Is no verifiable proof of the existence of Zhang San Feng. There is also no verifiable proof that “taijiquan” came from monks and there is no verifiable proof of it’s existence in 1000AD. There is some speculation that there was a qigong form know as Taiji that is older but it is not taijiquan

 

[Oily Dragon]

It sounds as if you are basing historical taijiquan on unverified claims with no historical evidence and myth. If so then on this topic, we shall never agree

The Daoyin exercises are pretty well verified from a historical POV.

Not only do they form one of the hearts of Neigong, they're an important skeletal truth, figuratively and literally. This is another example of a very, very old element worming its way through many CMA until it gets memorialized as something like holding beach ball similes.

These are the things that boxing, wrestling, and Tai Chi Chuan have in common, man.

Zhan zhuang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Oily Dragon]

sorry, do not agree, this is sounding to me to go into the realm of the mythical realm and belief in figure who cannot be historically proven to have existed. Not to mention if you look at those that talk about him as existing the times they claim he existed are vastly different. Which only leave another mythical claim of his existence as being immortal to describe the vastly different dates assigned to him. there Is no verifiable proof of the existence of Zhang San Feng. There is also no verifiable proof that “taijiquan” came from monks and there is no verifiable proof of it’s existence in 1000AD. There is some speculation that there was a qigong form know as Taiji that is older but it is not taijiquan

There is no verifiable proof of a lot of people in CMA history, that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

As far as monks in 1000AD, let's discuss. There were many epicenters combining Buddhist, Daoist, and martial arts training at that time.

This kind of goes back to why the Koreans consider "Seon" = "Good", you know.

There's a very positive Sino-Indian vibe going on here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is no verifiable proof of a lot of people in CMA history, that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

As far as monks in 1000AD, let's discuss. There were many epicenters combining Buddhist, Daoist, and martial arts training at that time.

This kind of goes back to why the Koreans consider "Seon" = "Good", you know.

There's a very positive Sino-Indian vibe going on here.

again speculatio, not going the speculation and mythology route.
epicenters of Buddhism, and Taoism do not translate to they did, or even knew of Taijiquan

here is an old post of mine on Zhang Sen Feng

Zhang Sanfeng was REAL!!! well no

but he is for about 30 to 60 minutes a day Personal (and a bit strange) discovery about training taijiquan and Zhang Sanfeng. I am finding it much more enjoyable and easier to train taijiquan if I just go with the thought that it was actually created by a mystical (likely mythical) Daoist...

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

again speculatio, not going the speculation and mythology route.
epicenters of Buddhism, and Taoism do not translate to they did, or even knew of Taijiquan

That's where it was percolated though. There's a large list of places documented in the scholarly literature like Mahar, as well as dramaticized in works like "The Wandering Taoist". Whether it's a real place or an imagined one, they all share the same characteristics. Like shuffling up the side of a mountain. Your Qi cultivation better be strong there.

People were writing about it even back then, whether or not they got a proper video capture.

here is an old post of mine on Zhang Sen Feng

Zhang Sanfeng was REAL!!! well no

but he is for about 30 to 60 minutes a day Personal (and a bit strange) discovery about training taijiquan and Zhang Sanfeng. I am finding it much more enjoyable and easier to train taijiquan if I just go with the thought that it was actually created by a mystical (likely mythical) Daoist...

www.martialtalk.com

As far as CMA mythical characters like him or others (there are many), I don't think we need to mention them, do we? I would never bore you with an afternoon of speculation on Ji Sin Sim See. We'd be here all month.

The evidence of TCC is all around, amply available, and pretty well archived for the next thousand generations. It's just waiting for a student to find it, then the master appears.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Daoyin exercises are pretty well verified from a historical POV.

Not only do they form one of the hearts of Neigong, they're an important skeletal truth, figuratively and literally. This is another example of a very, very old element worming its way through many CMA until it gets memorialized as something like holding beach ball similes.

These are the things that boxing, wrestling, and Tai Chi Chuan have in common, man.

Zhan zhuang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Daoyin is qigong, not taijiquan, and having things in common does not mean same. None of this has anything to do with actual taijiquan, grand ultimate fist, beyond the fact that over the year that some was taken from here and there and. Become part of taijiquan. Zhang Zhuan is not taijiquanand dos not prove taijiquan existed in 1000AD. It became part of taijiquan, as it became part of many CMA styles.

you are giving bits and pieces that eventually went into taijiquan and proof of its existence in 1000AD.

OK if that is proof then diansaurs still exist because many scientists believe thy became birds. And modern man as we know him today existed 750,000 years ago

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's where it was percolated though. There's a large list of places documented in the scholarly literature like Mahar, as well as dramaticized in works like "The Wandering Taoist". Whether it's a real place or an imagined one, they all share the same characteristics.

People were writing about it even back then, whether or not they got a proper video capture.

As far as CMA mythical characters like him or others (there are many), I don't think we need to mention them, do we? I would never bore you with an afternoon of speculation on Ji Sin Sim See. We'd be here all month.

The evidence of TCC is all around, amply available, and pretty well archived for the next thousand generations.

still no proof of taijiquan I. 1000 AD beyond speculation

we do not and likely will not agree so why continue to bore other reads on RF and possibly tax the mods. I stand by what I said, Taijiquan is as a martial art, virtually dead. This is based on experience, not speculation and bits and. Pieces thrown together. To prove what, and I am sorry about this, to prove what Is not historically or factually possible to support.

i have enjoyed our discussion

 

[Oily Dragon]

Daoyin is qigong, not taijiquan, and having things in common does not mean same. None of this has anything to do with actual taijiquan, grand ultimate fist, beyond the fact that over the year that some was taken from here and there and. Become part of taijiquan. Zhang Zhuan is not taijiquanand dos not prove taijiquan existed in 1000AD. It became part of taijiquan, as it became part of many CMA styles.

you are giving bits and pieces that eventually went into taijiquan and proof of its existence in 1000AD.

OK if that is proof then diansaurs still exist because many scientists believe thy became birds. And modern man as we know him today existed 750,000 years ago

You stole the Yi Jing again, didn't you?

Daoyin is qigong but not Taijiquan...Taijiquan is qigong.

Mind, blown. You've found the New Way. Party on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You stole the Yi Jing again, didn't you?

Daoyin is qigong but not Taijiquan...Taijiquan is qigong.

Mind, blown. You've found the New Way.

Chen Zhenglei and my wife the top graduate of the Beijing college of traditional Chinese medicine with and MD and Phd as well as my Yang taijiquan shifu, born raised and trained in China do not agree. Nor do I, and. Please stop the condescention. Taijiquan has qigong as part of it, as does baguazhang, xingyiquan, yiquan, wing chun….but they are not gigong.

And why would my mind be blown when you are wrong

i deal in historical facts not speculation, not bits and pieces thrown together to support some mythical claim….

this discussion is done…your condescending remarks says this will not end well if it continues….do not want to give the mods any issues

edit, nice mature laughing and love imojis just proves my point, you are not worth wasting and more of my time on.

we’re done here, have a nice day

 

[Oily Dragon]

Chen Zhenglei and my wife the top graduate of the Beijing college of traditional Chinese medicine with and MD and Phd as well as my Yang taijiquan shifu, born raised and trained in China do not agree. Nor do I, and. Please stop the condescention. Taijiquan has qigong as part of it, as does baguazhang, xingyiquan, yiquan, wing chun….but they are not gigong.

And why would my mind be blown when you are wrong

i deal in historical facts not speculation, not bits and pieces thrown together to support some mythical claim….

this discussion is done…your condescending remarks says this will not end well if it continues….do not want to give the mods any issues

edit, nice mature laughing and love imojis just proves my point, you are not worth wasting and more of my time on.

we’re done here, have a nice day

Wrong about what?

Sorry, I'm slow.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wrong about what?

Sorry, I'm slow.

Well I was sure wrong about you before…. not impressed

end discussion……bye bye

 

[Oily Dragon]

Well I was sure wrong about you before…. not impressed

end discussion……bye bye

It's like drama, and not drama.

This is some Stranger Things level stuff.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Just checked TCC is still breathing, Chen admonishments notwithstanding.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's funny Xue brought up Zhang Sanfeng (I sure never would).

Why is nobody else laughing.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's funny Xue brought up Zhang Sanfeng (I sure never would).

Why is nobody else laughing.

It's funny because Tai Chi Chuan's development predates the 12th century.