What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling, or boxing?

[MR. SERNA]

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

What's your opinion on this?

Taiji:

Wrestling:

Boxing:

It is an internal art form, known as shadow boxing.

Having been trained in Tai chi chuan

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

What's your opinion on this?

Taiji:

Wrestling:

Boxing:

It is internal training in kungfu known as shadow boxing.

It can be applied in combat and is the highest level of application, and only a handful are trained due to the devastating application.

Those who have been trained at that level guard heavily against showing off or displaying movements out of respect to the past masters and masters which are few these days.

Having said that you should ask if anyone has ever experienced the effects of combat with a Tai Chi Chuan man. I doubt you will find anyone who will share their experience.

Mr. Serna

 

[drop bear]

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.

 

[zzj]

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

What's your opinion on this?

Taiji:

Wrestling:

Boxing:

Today's Taijiquan is a 'broad church', different styles and schools will give you a different answer. Perhaps the only unifying view is that it is an 'internal art' conforming to the principles set out in the 'Taijiquan classics'. In any case, most practitioners and lineages are so far removed from actual fighting that they probably cannot tell you how the art is supposed to translate to actual usage.

That being said, my personal answer would be

- to primarily take the opponent down
- to push away so I may escape or to knock down if necessary/opportunity avails.

Training method differs-
- Wrestling/Shuaijiao is technique-oriented, Taijiquan is internal mechanics/attribute oriented (whether it is a more mechanical approach or esoteric chi/qi-based)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.

I feel the same way too. Wrestling utilizes

- yield,
- sticky,
- follow,
- sinking,
- ..

as basic 101.

I believe the major difference is

- Wrestling gives before taking.
- Taiji takes without giving.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I feel the same way too. Wrestling utilizes

- yield,
- sticky,
- follow,
- sinking,
- ..

as basic 101.

I believe the major difference is

- Wrestling gives before taking.
- Taiji takes without giving.

If you aren’t able to yield you aren’t doing anything I could recognize as Tai Chi. How much Tai Chi training do you have? I am not a wrestler, would it sound appropriate to you if I start talking about how wrestling is this or that? There is a big hole in your argument boat.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.

I am genuinely interested to hear about this,unless of course I need some status first. I don’t know much about classic wrestling.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.

I am genuinely interested to hear about this,unless of course I need some status first. I don’t know much about classic wrestling.

DB was being facetious in response to the claim that there is a super deadly combative effective form of Tai Chi training which only an handful of masters learn but which they won't publicly demonstrate because reasons.

However he's not exactly wrong either. Wrestling training normally starts out with a heavy, heavy focus on physical and mental conditioning, drilling, and free sparring and competition. (And this never goes away.) However at the highest levels of the art you end up with practitioners who have a very high level of integrated body awareness with regard to their own movement and sensitivity with regard to their opponent's energy. In my opinion, this type of skill is the same thing that practitioners of "internal" arts are chasing. It just doesn't tend to get recognized as such because serious wrestlers also have the classic "external" attributes of strength, speed, and explosiveness, which are more clearly recognizable from the outside.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

DB was being facetious in response to the claim that there is a super deadly combative effective form of Tai Chi training which only an handful of masters learn but which they won't publicly demonstrate because reasons.

However he's not exactly wrong either. Wrestling training normally starts out with a heavy, heavy focus on physical and mental conditioning, drilling, and free sparring and competition. (And this never goes away.) However at the highest levels of the art you end up with practitioners who have a very high level of integrated body awareness with regard to their own movement and sensitivity with regard to their opponent's energy. In my opinion, this type of skill is the same thing that practitioners of "internal" arts are chasing. It just doesn't tend to get recognized as such because serious wrestlers also have the classic "external" attributes of strength, speed, and explosiveness, which are more clearly recognizable from the outside.

Thank you for the clarification. I feel silly for asking now. I guess it goes with my repeated line that there is no real difference in styles, the people at the top are mostly doing the same things. I practice both types internal and external, I don’t think there is anything magical about one or the other. Hard and soft are equally useful, but in my opinion it is a higher skill when someone can freely and nearly imperceptibly switch back and forth or integrate both.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.

Sorry for my dumb question. I didnt get the sarcasm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How much Tai Chi training do you have? ... There is a big hole in your argument boat.

In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.

This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.

I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.

This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.

I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.

Ok you don’t use that same principle? That seems to me like the same way I trained Tai Chi. I call it shake the baby but I use that principle not just for the sweep but also to set up a punch or throw. I don’t really see any difference other than what we are calling it. I don’t think we have any disagreement about what works other than the name we call it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok you don’t use that same principle? That seems to me like the same way I trained Tai Chi. I call it shake the baby but I use that principle not just for the sweep but also to set up a punch or throw. I don’t really see any difference other than what we are calling it. I don’t think we have any disagreement about what works other than the name we call it.

Here is an example.

- You use hip throw on your opponent.
- Your opponent sinks down and resists your hip throw.
- You borrow his resistant force, change your hip throw into inner hook, and help your opponent to sink down more than he wants to.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.

This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.

I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.

Here is an example.

- You use hip throw on your opponent.
- Your opponent sinks down and resists your hip throw.
- You borrow his resistant force, change your hip throw into inner hook, and help your opponent to sink down more than he wants to.

That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.

One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.

To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.

 

[Flying Crane]

One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.

To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.

It shouldn’t take years to be able to apply to an opponent. It takes years to polish and reach a high level of skill. But it ought to be functional much much more quickly than that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.

This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.

I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.

In my flavor of Yang we do not always wait if there is a opening seen it is taken=n. Also if the opponent is not doing anything there are fakes that make them do something.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.

To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.

Well the guy in the video is not resisting and is not on his legs. I fail to see how this is supportive of your statements.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well the guy in the video is not resisting and is not on his legs. I fail to see how this is supportive of your statements.

Will this "knee seize, foot sweep" combo explain the "borrowing force" principle better?

- You try ro pull your opponent's leg. He steps back.
- You borrow his body turning, help him to turn more than he wants to, and sweep him down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.

Most demos in any style include someone displaying token resistance that sets up the technique being demonstrated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my flavor of Yang we do not always wait if there is a opening seen it is taken=n. Also if the opponent is not doing anything there are fakes that make them do something.

That seems to be the case in John’s approach, as well, from past posts.