What would you do in this situation?

[sl2squeeze]

I was watching a show on E! today that talked about this guy in Arizona who kidnapped two girls at gunpoint and raped them. He then proceeded to tie them both up and put them in the back seat of his Bronco truck.

He pulled his car over into a desolate area and fell asleep in the driver's seat while these girls are alive and awake in the back seat with a bowie knife that he forgot was in the car. One of the girls managed to get free and stabbed the guy in the neck while he was sleeping.

If you were in this situation and had only one chance to kill the maniac who kidnapped you, where would you stab him? Keep in mind that the kidnapper, although sleeping, had two guns on his person.

I ask this because the stab to the neck did not kill the kidnapper....he managed to drive the car away and finally got into a shootout with police during which time he was shot and killed.

 

[Empty Hands]

The neck's the best one-shot bet, even if it didn't work in this case. Drive it deep, at a 45 degree angle, right next to the trachea. That will hit the carotid.

Of course, I would have taken a bullet before going anywhere with that slime. Those girls are lucky to be alive. Too bad the stab wasn't fatal.

 

[jks9199]

There's not a simple answer. It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets... The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin. It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives). But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...

What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up. They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom. That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.

 

[theletch1]

There's not a simple answer. It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets... The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin. It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives). But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...

What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up. They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom. That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.

Excellent point. Never giving up is the only mind-set you can afford to have and stay alive. I'm curious though, the OP said that he raped both girls and then tied them up. Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend? Yes, I understand the psychology of the situation...terror and all but I'm looking from a purely SD mindset here. I'm curious what the other ladies on the board would have done in that situation. I'm certain that it wouldn't have been to freeze up. This is a perfect example of the benifits of training. Keeps you, hopefully, from the initial freezing up. The fact that once things had had time to settle into their heads for a little while they had the presence of mind to free themselves and then fight back says a lot for them.

 

[Empty Hands]

Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend?

The OP said they were kidnapped at gunpoint. The rapist probably had the gun trained on the other girl, or he could quickly do so.

 

[jks9199]

Excellent point. Never giving up is the only mind-set you can afford to have and stay alive. I'm curious though, the OP said that he raped both girls and then tied them up. Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend? Yes, I understand the psychology of the situation...terror and all but I'm looking from a purely SD mindset here. I'm curious what the other ladies on the board would have done in that situation. I'm certain that it wouldn't have been to freeze up. This is a perfect example of the benifits of training. Keeps you, hopefully, from the initial freezing up. The fact that once things had had time to settle into their heads for a little while they had the presence of mind to free themselves and then fight back says a lot for them.

I refuse to second guess the actions of a rape survivor. The girls may not have had the opportunity to defend themselves during the rape for numerous reasons. While enduring the rape is seldom an ideal tactic, there have been cases where biding their time and choosing the right moment to attack was the key to successful escape. Maybe earlier action would have prevented the rape -- or maybe it would have simply led to the victim's death. What I teach is to do WHATEVER it takes to survive -- even if that means enduring something you'd never wish on your worst enemy.

 

[theletch1]

I refuse to second guess the actions of a rape survivor. The girls may not have had the opportunity to defend themselves during the rape for numerous reasons. While enduring the rape is seldom an ideal tactic, there have been cases where biding their time and choosing the right moment to attack was the key to successful escape. Maybe earlier action would have prevented the rape -- or maybe it would have simply led to the victim's death. What I teach is to do WHATEVER it takes to survive -- even if that means enduring something you'd never wish on your worst enemy.

I apoligize for coming across as if I were second guessing the two women in the report. That was not my intention. As I said in my post I was attempting to look at it from a purely SD mindset. We simply don't have enough detail about the original attack to understand every option the girls had.

 

[morph4me]

I don't know that I would stab him anywhere, I'd more than likely slit his throat from ear to ear, and then bury the knife to the hilt downward behind his collar bone.That would only be because he had the guns and killing him as slowly and painfully as he deserved wouldn't be an option.

 

[CoryKS]

If you were in this situation and had only one chance to kill the maniac who kidnapped you, where would you stab him? Keep in mind that the kidnapper, although sleeping, had two guns on his person.

I'd probably go for the eyes and work my way down.

 

[tellner]

JKS is, of course, correct. Remember what he said. It's important.

But given that, there are targets that give you a better chance. We've known about them for tens or hundreds of thousands of years.

1. The femoral artery
2. The kidney
3. The base of the skull and cervical spine
4. The great vessels of the neck
5. The brain via the eye
6. The radial and brachial arteries
7. The liver
8. "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach"

Any of these can take render someone unconscious in less than a minute, dead pretty quickly thereafter and possibly unable to fight within seconds. It all depends on what you've got and what targets present themselves. There are techniques specific to each of these. I will not go into them here.

There are other targets like

1. The tendons
2. The facial carotid
3. Nerve bundles
4. The scalp above the eyes

which reduce his ability to fight. If you can't get the primary targets these can slow him down enough to let you get them.

Cutting his throat while he's asleep seems like an excellent tactic under the circumstances. As the Noble Quran says "in battle strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated bind any captives securely - later you can release them by grace or by ransom - until the toils of war have ended."

 

[Lisa]

What would I have done?

Anything I possibly could to survive. I am thinking if I was in the back seat I would want to hurt him (hopefully fatally) as quickly as I could without giving him a chance to react and grab me in any way. A good hard stab to the neck from the back seat would work, one would think anyway. Other then that slicing him across the throat. I wouldn't attempt anything lower on the torso as I would be afraid he could grab me.

Stab and run. As fast and as hard as I could on both.

 

[Kacey]

If I were alone - I'd stab anything I could reach, preferably something that would bleed a lot. If I were with another person, as the women here, I would like to think that I would free the other person first, so she could help me both with the knife and the escape. Either way I would do my best to kill (or at least disable) the bastard and then get away as quickly as possible, screaming for help as soon as I could.

 

[terryl965]

I would have to agree with all of you I would make sure I stab or cut the thoart and then ran as fast as I could until I found somebody.

 

[Drac]

There's not a simple answer. It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets... The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin. It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives). But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...

What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up. They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom. That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.

Couldn't have said it any better....

 

[14 Kempo]

I agree, stab the neck area or slice the throat. A stab slightly upward entering anywhere from behind and slightly below the ear to the base of the skull, maybe with a little scramble added in once the hilt of the knife was on the skull, would do the trick.

What most people aren't noting, and I don't know whether or not they realize it, a Bronco is a two door vehicle, unless the guy is totally incapacitated, they would not be able to get out the door. But if they could get out, run like hell.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Slit the throut open. Unless I can get his gun(s), in which case I'd take them, and run in the direction of safety.

 

[tellner]

CN, if I could get one of his guns I'd quickly put two or three rounds into the back of his skull. You won't get another chance like that. The gun won't make you run any faster. And you sure as hell don't want to let him wake up.

It's interesting, there's a number of people here with very specific tactical concerns about how to disable the criminal as efficiently as possible. They tend to be the ones for whom violence is a part of professional life or those who generally have a serious self defense attitude. Another group is more general in its thoughts with things like cutting something unspecified or doing "whatever it takes". They tend to be more explicitly interested in martial arts as a hobby or social activity. I suppose they confront these issues a bit less often and have less of a planned and practiced response to deadly force situations.

It's very interesting and not unexpected.

I'm gratified that nobody suggested holding him prisoner, tying him up, attempting something non-violent or (with one exception) running off into the unknown in the night with no resources or bearings.

 

[theletch1]

I think that, as a general rule, regardless of the reason you train in the martial arts that one of the by products is the understanding that there are, indeed, times when violence simply cannot be avoided. Trying something non-violent is great in theory but in the case of the two young ladies in the OP the attacker had already proven beyong a shadow of a doubt that there would not be a non-violent ending to the scenario.

 

[KenpoTex]

Kudos to the girls for not giving up!

My specific actions in this scenario would depend on a number of variables:
-what is the posture of the bad guy (leaning back, slumped over the wheel, lying on the seat, etc.)?
-are his guns in a place where I can grab one or both (for that matter, do I know how to use one if I get it?)?
-what is the length and weight of the knife?
-is my fellow captive able and willing to help me attack the guy?

As a general rule, I'd be more likely to thrust the blade into the neck (carotid), behind the collar-bone (sub-clavian), or up behind the ear or base of the skull (brain/brainstem) than to try "slashing his throat."
One idea would be for one person to grab his hair or head and drive the knife into his neck while the other one went for one of his weapons or tried to get a door open.

There are too many variables to be able to say definitively what I would do in a specific situation but the point is that you need to keep fighting until there is no longer a threat. In a situation like this, would I kill a sleeping man so that I could escape...damn right I would.

 

[CuongNhuka]

CN, if I could get one of his guns I'd quickly put two or three rounds into the back of his skull. You won't get another chance like that. The gun won't make you run any faster. And you sure as hell don't want to let him wake up.

Yah, but I'd rather like to avoid killing someone. Haveing that gun means that if he wakes up, I don't have to worry (as much) about dieing myself. see the logic?