What went wrong?

[windwalker099]

Physical guard is used in both striking art and wrestling art. Your arms act like insect whiskers to sense the environment.

example of not using a physical guard against a physical guard

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

example of not using a physical guard against a physical guard

The guy on the right keeps his sword behind his body. He has no guard. He invited his opponent to attack him. He then counters it. You need to have good speed in order to do so.



Sometimes I use no guard too. I would drop both hands next to my legs and bait my opponent to punch me. I then use "stealing step with hook punch" to counter him. It's good strategy too.

 

[windwalker099]

The guy on the right keeps his sword behind his body. He has no guard. He invited his opponent to attack him. He then counters it. You need to have good speed in order to do so.

And a lot, lot of practice.

To make it work, one needs to try it against as many others as possible.
People who boxed or said they did, make pretty good testing grounds.
Boxing very honest....getting hit, and hitting....makes for a good teacher.

Much of the time, it may not work, until it does...

Used to train each hand, into the 1000s or reps...
using what was called triangle in and out step...

Hindsight being 2020... n-mantis a big mistake for me, as well as taiji...
Although, through taiji did manage to find something quite interesting.

 

[Holmejr]

If these 2 were people that you were training. What advice would you give them as their coach or trainer?

For hands only.
Well, I’d work on straight punching first and the defenses for straight punches. Move to hook type punches and the defenses. When the students are fairly comfortable with each, then combine them. Start adding footwork to the equation. Jab and move. Hook and step off, etc. Of course there is the uppercut also.
Good beginner stuff.
Beginning sparring should be light and easy. The teacher should recognize when the sparring is getting chaotic and unproductive and bring it back to center and reset.
The are so many good beginner strategies and drills.

 

[Holmejr]

Case in point, did anybody see the Holloway/Topuria fight? Obviously, both stand up fighters. Topuria’s superior boxing skills dominated the fight. Granted there is much more to MMA than boxing and boxing, although definitely adds to self defense doesn’t necessarily make for good street self defense in and of itself, as going fisticuffs with an assailant isn’t optimal. But it seems when virtually any MA spars it simply becomes boxing with kicks included. It might become something more, but that’s how it typically starts out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I look for in clips, regardless of level, is whether the practitioners are using what they train in.

This is the first thing I look for as well in all martial arts except for MMA. MMA is such a mix bag of taking pieces of systems that it's not possible to know if they trained in one system or not.

But for TMA systems and even some modern systems. I always want to see if they use what they train.
When I train students "Not trying = Quitting." I don't like it. A student as 2 good arms and 2 good legs but no spirt

Not Trying = Quitting. There is no excuse for the majority of TMA practitioners to not try to apply what they train. This guys puts in more effort in doing this kata than I've seen from a lot of TMA practioners when it comes to sparring and using what they train.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The guy on the right keeps his sword behind his body. He has no guard. He invited his opponent to attack him. He then counters it. You need to have good speed in order to do so.

Good speed and excellent timing. Unless you are in your teens and 20's where the reaction time is naturally better than someone in their 40's and 50's. Encouraging the strike you want is also a good plan. Never let your opponent choose the strikes to throw. Always do things to encourage the strike that you want. This makes it less of a guessing game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they use what they train.

This is easy to do. You can always set the sparring rule that student can only win that round if they use a certain technique they train.

For example,

- A can only use head lock.
- B can only use punch.

It's not easy to obtain a head lock during a fist flying situation. But if students have train this over 1000 rounds, soon or later they will be good at it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is easy to do. You can always set the sparring rule that student can only win that round if they use a certain technique they train.

I agree and unfortunately that is one rule that I did not make in sparring. I will probably do it the next time I teach Jow Ga depending on the person I'm teaching and their willingness to try and explore with a technique. Your way addresses a person's desire to win. Shape what counts as winning.

 

[windwalker099]

This is easy to do. You can always set the sparring rule that student can only win that round if they use a certain technique they train.

IME a little different

TWC, through training, no possibility of not using it.

Ron Dong / Gorge Long

sparring practice
The teacher Ron Dong

2 man set, example of how the style is used.

2 aspects...

arms up, movement, outer circle --- crane strategy.
arms down, less movement, inner circle --- gorilla or ape strategy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

2 man set, example of how the style is used.

2 man sets can be useful if used correctly. However the major problem with 2 man sets is that they are usually System A vs System A.

Jow Ga has a 2 manset. It's made of all Jow Ga Techniques. System A vs System A. A better 2 man set would be System A vs System B. Jow Ga vs Boxing or Jow Ga vs TKD this is where TMA goes wrong and why it has had the problems that it has had.

Jow Ga vs Jow Ga. Now watch it and think Jow Ga vs Boxing and you instantly see and feel the disconnect.

Do the same here

Now take a look at this one. Jow Ga vs MMA
The MMA movement is completely different than what we saw in the other two videos.

MMA will not use Jow Ga techniques against me. As a result, my 2 man set of Jow Ga vs Jow Ga will be lacking I would like to make my own 2 man set that is more reflective of System A vs System B encounters which is more likely to happen than System A vs System A. encounters.

 

[marvin8]

Do not use "zombie arms" ... Extending straight arms to keep the person away will not stop punches.

Zombie arms is used to obtain clinch.

Straightening both arms (Zombie) while trying to grab can get you KOd.

Case in point, did anybody see the Holloway/Topuria fight? Obviously, both stand up fighters. Topuria’s superior boxing skills dominated the fight. Granted there is much more to MMA than boxing and boxing, although definitely adds to self defense doesn’t necessarily make for good street self defense in and of itself, as going fisticuffs with an assailant isn’t optimal. But it seems when virtually any MA spars it simply becomes boxing with kicks included. It might become something more, but that’s how it typically starts out.

Yes. In Holloway vs Topuria, Ilia...

1. lures Max to hand fight by extending his guard while stepping forward.
2. as Max extends his guard (double weighted), Ilia covers/controls (not grabs) Max'a lead hand and lands the rear hand on Max's chin.
3. as Max extends his arms (Zombie), Ilia KOs him with the lead hook.

https://imgur.com/eQHL5pr

In Magomedov vs Petrosyan, Shara...

1. lures Armen by stepping back with the lead foot (pull)
2. as Armen steps forward, Shara steps forward with the rear foot while checking/controlling Armen's lead leg (push).
3. while Armen is on one leg (double weighted), Shara does a spinning backfist which is blocked by Armen.
4. as Armen lands his lead foot (still double weighted), Shara spins again KOing Armen with the double spinning backfist.

https://imgur.com/Kq8RYXv

 

[windwalker099]

However the majore problem with 2 man sets is that they are usually System A vs System B.

Problem ?

Concepts taught using two man sets, distancing, positioning, timing and movement in such a way
that people can get used to the ebb and flow, applying strategies later to be used free form...

ie a training aid...much like this...

In CMA there is a saying "十年不出门" (shí nián bù chū mén)
Ten years without going out...Takes awhile to develop the skill sets later to be tested.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Straightening both arms (Zombie) while trying to grab can get you KOd.

This reminds me of someone trying to stop a linear punch. Cicular punche can not be stopped at the bicep or the shoulder, in short because the energy of the punch isn't coming forward, it's coming from the side. This is the expected outome. Had he kept his arm at the original angle that he had and sent pushed the arm into the circular punch then he would have been able to keep that punch from landing on his facce like that. He made the same mistake twice in that video. clip.

Shara does a spinning backfist which is blocked by Armen.

it looks like he got hit with a Hammer Fist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Problem ?

Yeah the problem is my spelling lol but I corrected. it. .I should be Systm A vs System A.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Concepts taught using two man sets, distancing, positioning, timing and movement in such a way
that people can get used to the ebb and flow, applying strategies later to be used free form...

It's getting you used to the distancing, positioning, timing and movements of System A. Jow Ga vs Jow Ga 2 man set = everything about your opponent is distancing, positioning, timing, and movement of Jow Ga.

Jow Ga vs MMA, Jow Ga vs Muay Thai, and Jow Ga vs BJJ use different distancing, positioning, timing, and movments that are not used in the Jow Ga 2 main set. That's where you'll run straight into the issue head on.

None of this will train your eyes or help you to deal what Jow Ga throws at you. It also wouldn't help at what BJJ or any other system throws at you. In Jow Ga, if you are watching my eyes then it probably means you are about to get kicked or hit. I often use my eyes in Jow Ga to mislead and to watch to make sure that you haven't picked up on what I'm doing. I can literally do big wheel punches and wink at my opponents to let then know that they have been had. Every system has their own approach. Doing what's in the video below helps when it's System A vs System A.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Problem ?

Concepts taught using two man sets, distancing, positioning, timing and movement in such a way
that people can get used to the ebb and flow, applying strategies later to be used free form...

ie a training aid...much like this...

In CMA there is a saying "十年不出门" (shí nián bù chū mén)
Ten years without going out...Takes awhile to develop the skill sets later to be tested.

lol Only when you don't go out. lol Jow Ga kung fu only made sense to me when I stopped doing Jow Ga Kung Fu vs Jow Ga Kung fu. Once I started sparring against other people outside of Jow Ga, things began to make more sense and thanks to that I advanced faster in 1 year than most people do in 5 years. I also take pride that I can use almost all of the techniques in the beginner form Sei Ping with the exception of 2. 1 can't do because I don't understand and the other, I can't do because I'm overweight and too slow with that technique.

I can use all of these techniques in sparring. No matter who I spar against there is something from this form that I can use. For me that's a big achievement in my personal growth. But none of this started clicking for me until I started sparring outside of Jow Ga which was around 1994 or 1995

Historically Martial Arts fought System A vs System B in competition. But somewhere during the course of competition things began to be System A vs System A and if you didn't train System A then you couldn't participate in the tournament. That was probably when TMA started to degrade.

 

[JowGaWolf]

System A vs System B

System A vs System A

System A vs System A two man set

System vs System B

Just from looking at these we can see that adjustments will need to be made. We can also see where the 2 man set is lacking. Don'ty get me wrong. I like the 2 man set. But I wouldn't use it to train fight application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah the problem is my spelling lol but I corrected. it. .I should be Systm A vs System A.

and the spelling is still bad. I can't spell "it" nor can I spell "System."