What weapons are Taekwondo?

[Flying Crane]

But it is the same - avoid the ouchy parts as best you can. That holds for any weapon at all.

You shouldn't really engage with the weapon, you engage with the person holding it. If you can get to the person (or get away) without their weapon's ouchy parts doing their job on you then your chances increase instantly and dramatically.

If you're adamant that the weapon is the be-all and end-all then I'll have to agree to disagree with you.

If you end up in a close clinch, grappling Over the weapon, if the tip of a stick scrapes across your belly, you may be fine. If the tip of a sword scrapes across your belly, you may be scooping your intestines off the ground. If you grab the shaft of a stick, you may be fine. If you grab the middle of the blade of a sword, you may sever the tendons of your hand and now he delivers a killing blow.

If he thrusts a long staff at you and you grab for the end of it in an attempt to control the weapon, you may be fine. If he thrusts a spear at you and you grab for the end of it in an attempt to control the weapon, you are grabbing at a fast-moving blade with a sharp edge, and you just lost the use of your hand.

If he swings a stick at you with homicidal intent, you may think that you can block and absorb the blow, because it isn’t sharp. That might get your arms broken. Now he beats your skull in.

Yes, there is overlap. But there are very important differences that can be the difference in living a little longer, or not.

As to engaging the person instead of the weapon, we’ll sure. Assuming you can get past the weapon. If he is unskilled, maybe. If he is even modestly skilled, well good luck to you.

 

[pdg]

If you end up in a close clinch, grappling Over the weapon, if the tip of a stick scrapes across your belly, you may be fine. If the tip of a sword scrapes across your belly, you may be scooping your intestines off the ground. If you grab the shaft of a stick, you may be fine. If you grab the middle of the blade of a sword, you may sever the tendons of your hand and now he delivers a killing blow.

If he thrusts a long staff at you and you grab for the end of it in an attempt to control the weapon, you may be fine. If he thrusts a spear at you and you grab for the end of it in an attempt to control the weapon, you are grabbing at a fast-moving blade with a sharp edge, and you just lost the use of your hand.

If he swings a stick at you with homicidal intent, you may think that you can block and absorb the blow, because it isn’t sharp. That might get your arms broken. Now he beats your skull in.

Yes, there is overlap. But there are very important differences that can be the difference in living a little longer, or not.

As to engaging the person instead of the weapon, we’ll sure. Assuming you can get past the weapon. If he is unskilled, maybe. If he is even modestly skilled, well good luck to you.

But everything there fits perfectly with my procedure of "avoid the ouchy bits".

You don't need an in depth understanding to realise you don't grab a sword by the blade or a spear by the head, or try to block a forcefully swung 2x4 with a knifehand.

Like I say, it works with every weapon.

Go up against a boxer (whether you're a boxer or not) and you don't engage with his fists, those are the ouchy bits - avoid them if you can.

Focussing on the weapon to the extent you appear to be describing is like a boxer who stares at his opponents hands in the ring - he gon get slapped.

 

[Flying Crane]

But everything there fits perfectly with my procedure of "avoid the ouchy bits".

You don't need an in depth understanding to realise you don't grab a sword by the blade or a spear by the head, or try to block a forcefully swung 2x4 with a knifehand.

Like I say, it works with every weapon.

Go up against a boxer (whether you're a boxer or not) and you don't engage with his fists, those are the ouchy bits - avoid them if you can.

Focussing on the weapon to the extent you appear to be describing is like a boxer who stares at his opponents hands in the ring - he gon get slapped.

Ok, if you think that in the chaos of a life-and-death battle that you are going to be so clear-headed about all this, particularly if you haven’t deliberately trained it, then you are delusional.

I am guessing you have no experience with this. Am I wrong?

 

[pdg]

Ok, if you think that in the chaos of a life-and-death battle that you are going to be so clear-headed about all this, particularly if you haven’t deliberately trained it, then you are delusional.

I am guessing you have no experience with this. Am I wrong?

You're getting very defensive about it - how many chaotic life or death battles have you been involved in?

If you actually read what I wrote, you'll see where I agreed that training sword defence against an unskilled swordsman won't help you much at all if a skilled one turns up.

But, I absolutely fail to see how you refuse to understand that it's the person, not the weapon.

Training against a skilled swordsman with a fake sword might help a little if the situation got real.

Training against an unskilled person with a sword though, not much use for either of you.

Same weapon, different people, different dangers.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're getting very defensive about it - how many chaotic life or death battles have you been involved in?

If you actually read what I wrote, you'll see where I agreed that training sword defence against an unskilled swordsman won't help you much at all if a skilled one turns up.

But, I absolutely fail to see how you refuse to understand that it's the person, not the weapon.

Training against a skilled swordsman with a fake sword might help a little if the situation got real.

Training against an unskilled person with a sword though, not much use for either of you.

Same weapon, different people, different dangers.

I’m not defensive. I just feel that you are making women pretty unrealistic assumptions.

Again, do you have any weapons experience at all? Obviously I’m not talking about real Life-or-death battles, but have you handled weapons at all? They handle very differently from the overly dramatic sword swinging and whatnot that you see in the movies...

 

[pdg]

I’m not defensive. I just feel that you are making women pretty unrealistic assumptions.

Again, do you have any weapons experience at all? Obviously I’m not talking about real Life-or-death battles, but have you handled weapons at all? They handle very differently from the overly dramatic sword swinging and whatnot that you see in the movies...

I have a funny feeling that whatever experience I may have will be derided as insufficient...

But hey, I'll give it a go.

I've handled enough swords to know that I couldn't be descibed as skilled. The same can be said about most weapons in fact.

But I've also handled enough to know that a sword isn't just a sword. A person extremely skilled with one particular type wouldn't necessarily be able to handle a different type with anything like the same efficiency.

That again could illustrate that it's the person, not the weapon. Take someone who is very good with a rapier, stick a claymore in their hand... Still a sword, but if the person can't wield it?

Take an expert swordsman, arm him with a staff (or other weapon he's never trained with) - that person is suddenly less of a challenge.

And really, do you honesty think I put any stock in the flashy 'made for action filming' type of choreography you see in films?

A real epic battle would make an extremely boring film.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a funny feeling that whatever experience I may have will be derided as insufficient...

But hey, I'll give it a go.

I've handled enough swords to know that I couldn't be descibed as skilled. The same can be said about most weapons in fact.

But I've also handled enough to know that a sword isn't just a sword. A person extremely skilled with one particular type wouldn't necessarily be able to handle a different type with anything like the same efficiency.

That again could illustrate that it's the person, not the weapon. Take someone who is very good with a rapier, stick a claymore in their hand... Still a sword, but if the person can't wield it?

Take an expert swordsman, arm him with a staff (or other weapon he's never trained with) - that person is suddenly less of a challenge.

And really, do you honesty think I put any stock in the flashy 'made for action filming' type of choreography you see in films?

A real epic battle would make an extremely boring film.

Ya, different weapons are different. My assumption is that a person is skilled with the particular weapon he is using.

glad to know you aren’t delusional about movie weapon work.

Now as Ive said several times, it is very unlikely that either of us will actually need to battle an opponent armed with one of these weapons, regardless of skill level. So the discussion really is academic. I don’t live in fear of any of this.

But in the spirit of the academia, I hope you never have need to test your hypotheses.

 

[pdg]

Ya, different weapons are different. My assumption is that a person is skilled with the particular weapon he is using.

But that's tantamount to agreeing it's the person you're fighting rather than the weapon

To use my previous example, a rapier expert is still likely to be better with a claymore than me, because the person has a grounding in the use of an edged weapon - if he is adaptable enough to adjust for the different weight and balance you're still in trouble. Much more trouble than if you were facing me armed with the same item.

glad to know you aren’t delusional about movie weapon work.

Have you tried swinging (say) a broadsword like in the movies?

I have...

They get very heavy very quickly - I don't care how much you've trained you wouldn't be doing it like that for all that long.

But in the spirit of the academia, I hope you never have need to test your hypotheses.

Honestly, you and me both...

I've never said not to consider the weapon used, but once you've assessed which bits hurt (won't take long) it's down to the person and their skill level.

 

[Flying Crane]

But that's tantamount to agreeing it's the person you're fighting rather than the weapon

It is, I do not deny it. But the weapon gives great advantage, particularly when the individual is skilled.

A rifle, I would argue, is meant for a longer range combat, at least well out of immediate reach of someone. So if we have a distance of say 40 yards, and someone is trying to shoot you with the rifle, what do you do?

A rifle takes far less training to have workable skill with it, than some of the other weapons we have discussed. Even someone who has only fired a rifle on a shooting range a few times, could be very dangerous at 40 yards, to an unarmed opponent. So how do you deal with that? Sure, you are fighting the person. But that rifle is a very serious issue. How do you get around it?
Some weapons just tip the scales beyond what is surmountable.

To use my previous example, a rapier expert is still likely to be better with a claymore than me, because the person has a grounding in the use of an edged weapon - if he is adaptable enough to adjust for the different weight and balance you're still in trouble. Much more trouble than if you were facing me armed with the same item.

Sure, understood and agreed.

Have you tried swinging (say) a broadsword like in the movies?

I have...

They get very heavy very quickly - I don't care how much you've trained you wouldn't be doing it like that for all that long.

I have some very heavy (but still real-ish) swords that I have trained in the context of Chinese martial arts. Yes, they wear you down very quickly. The key is to use good technique, which means you don’t just swing them with your arms. Rather; you engage the body from the feet on up, through the hips and torso, and you let your arms move with the body, in that way you will last a lot longer before becoming exhausted.

In my opinion that is one of the best reasons to train archaic weapons in the modern age: they help you understand that body connection.

I believe that real sword technique on a battlefield, or even in a duel, would be much more subtle than what we see on the movies. It’s quick, and then it’s over, and somebody screams and bleeds for a while before dying.

Honestly, you and me both...

I've never said not to consider the weapon used, but once you've assessed which bits hurt (won't take long) it's down to the person and their skill level.

Yes, but I hold that the unarmed fellow needs an order of magnitude of skill greater than the armed fellow, to have much chance of it. And in some cases, it just ain’t possible. A rifle at 40 yards. Maybe a spear at 8 feet or a sword at 5.
That’s my take on it.

And again, none of this means you shouldn’t do what you can to train it, if that is what you are interested in. Even if the likelihood of facing such an opponent is very very small, the exercise yields other benefits to your overall training.

 

[pdg]

To go into firearms is a little different.

A rifle is relatively easy to aim reasonably well at something like 40 yards, but an unskilled person with a rifle? Not all that likely to hit a moving target (serpentine )

Run at them, weave a bit, you'll probably get to kick them in the face.

An unskilled person with a handgun? I'd rather go up against them than an unskilled person with a sword...

 

[Flying Crane]

To go into firearms is a little different.

A rifle is relatively easy to aim reasonably well at something like 40 yards, but an unskilled person with a rifle? Not all that likely to hit a moving target (serpentine )

Run at them, weave a bit, you'll probably get to kick them in the face.

An unskilled person with a handgun? I'd rather go up against them than an unskilled person with a sword...

These are all things on a continuum. Brass knuckles to swords to spears to bow and arrows to guns to artillery to intercontinental ballistic missiles. They are all weapons meant to give a decided advantage. It is just a continuum. The farther along the continuum, the less chance of directly defending against it and the more you need to just not be there at all.

Give the guy with a rifle a full magazine, even if unskilled, I highly highly doubt you will get a chance to kick him in the face. He doesn’t have to waste his ammunition as you run and weave. He just needs to track you until you get tired, or you get close enough that his margin of error shrinks.

A handgun, outside of immediate reach, say 10 yards especially if the gun is out and ready, same thing. Your best chance is if he hasn’t yet drawn it and you have an opportunity to rush him. Sure, give it a try, don’t just stand there and get shot. But realistically, if he has shot the weapon a few times before and has that much familiarity with it, he will get you.

 

[skribs]

Ok, if you think that in the chaos of a life-and-death battle that you are going to be so clear-headed about all this, particularly if you haven’t deliberately trained it, then you are delusional.

I am guessing you have no experience with this. Am I wrong?

I'm sorry, but how clear-headed do you need to be to remember which bits of a weapon are the ouchie bits?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sorry, but how clear-headed do you need to be to remember which bits of a weapon are the ouchie bits?

Ok, you are simply reaching.

 

[pulsescarborough]

Eskrima Sticks. These are weapons often used in the traditional martial arts of the Philippines.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Eskrima Sticks. These are weapons often used in the traditional martial arts of the Philippines.

OK... right... but what, exactly, does that have to do with the question, which was "what weapons are taekwondo?"

 

[skribs]

Ok, you are simply reaching.

I'm not reaching very far, I don't think. It's not hard to remember that a sword is sharp or that a big block of something will hurt.

 

[WaterGal]

I think this might be getting closer to the mark.

Honestly, I think it is very unlikely that you will ever face the punk who stole a sword either. Swords are difficult to carry in a manner that does not attract attention, so people just don’t carry them around. I think if you face such a person, it might be because you broke into his house and he grabbed the cheap sword off the wall to defend his home.

There was a case just recently of a woman who got angry at her boyfriend for cheating on her, and instead of breaking up with him like a sensible person, she bought a sword at the mall and hid it under the bed, and attacked him with it when he fell asleep. He said that he used martial arts skills he learned from watching kung fu movies to defend himself , but he still ended up in the hospital. IIRC, the article said that they had to reattach a couple of of his fingers and put a titanium plate on one of his bones.

 

[WaterGal]

You don't need an in depth understanding to realise you don't grab a sword by the blade or a spear by the head, or try to block a forcefully swung 2x4 with a knifehand.

When I was younger, I used to attend a TKD school that also taught Kumdo. One of the Kumdo students got a real sword after he got to 1st Dan, and wanted to practice a solo form with the real sword. After he does the form, he goes to put the sword back in the scabbard, misjudges his angle somehow, and slices his fingers open down to the bone. This was an adult man practicing by himself, who'd been training for a couple of years.

In a stressful real combat situation, I'm sure some folks will try to grab the blade.

 

[pdg]

In a stressful real combat situation, I'm sure some folks will try to

I'm sure there are too, I never denied that fact - simply though, in most cases it should be avoided.

That said, I'm equally sure that sometimes, grabbing the blade is actually the best option available.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not reaching very far, I don't think. It's not hard to remember that a sword is sharp or that a big block of something will hurt.

Sure, but if some is coming at you with homicidal intent, swinging and stabbing at you with 3 feet of sharp steel, faster than your eye can follow, do you really believe you are going to be mindful of the sharp bits as panic sets in and you try to block and desperately grab at the weapon before you die? Keep in mind, you are unarmed in this scenario.

Seriously, come on man.