What To Do With The Prison Population

[MJS]

This is sort of a spin-off of a thread that TOD started regarding cable TV in prison cells. Now, reading thru that thread, there were mixed views. So, my question is: What should we have the inmates do? I mean, sitting around watching tv, playing a board game or lifting weights, IMO, is not too productive. Instead, I think having them work would be much more productive. Something along the lines of a chain gang IMO is much more beneficial. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them going out in small groups, along the highway, picking up trash. They're giving something back to the community, by helping to keep it clean and they're also getting out of the prison for a few hours.

Of course, I'm sure there are other assorted 'jobs' that they could do, so the above was only a start.

Any other thoughts?

 

[michaeledward]

I think one must consider what caused the offender to be incarcerated.

In the past couple of decades, mandatory sentencing has been implemented across the country. One of the first things we as a society should do, is release those criminals who are serving mandatory minimum sentences based on non-violent offenses.

The 'War on Drugs' has lead to many low-level, or personal user incarcerations that do little to stop the trade of contraban, or protect society.


Education services and Trade training should also be offered to those offenders that remain behind bars.


We should be embarassed by the percentage of our population that is behind bars.

 

[MJS]

I think one must consider what caused the offender to be incarcerated.

In the past couple of decades, mandatory sentencing has been implemented across the country. One of the first things we as a society should do, is release those criminals who are serving mandatory minimum sentences based on non-violent offenses.

The 'War on Drugs' has lead to many low-level, or personal user incarcerations that do little to stop the trade of contraban, or protect society.


Education services and Trade training should also be offered to those offenders that remain behind bars.


We should be embarassed by the percentage of our population that is behind bars.

So, for example. Take a low level drug dealer, who is in prison for 5 yrs. Release him and do what with him? I'm assuming you're suggesting a job, community work, etc.

IMO, it would be worth a shot. If it changes someone, then hey, why not try it right? Hopefully it would work. However, if it doesn't, I think another second chance should not be an option.

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you here.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

So, for example. Take a low level drug dealer, who is in prison for 5 yrs. Release him and do what with him? I'm assuming you're suggesting a job, community work, etc.

IMO, it would be worth a shot. If it changes someone, then hey, why not try it right? Hopefully it would work. However, if it doesn't, I think another second chance should not be an option.

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you here.

Mike

Not necessarily 'drug dealer'. That term is not interchangable with drug user. But many laws do not discriminate. How do you define a 'dealer'?

Assuming a convict is serving a mandatory minimum for having a plastic bag full of marijuanna - let's say the size restricted by the TSA for your toothpast - (a 1 quart bag) - Release him and allow him to do what he chooses. If he wants to work, great. If he wants to surf, great. If he wants to live in a van, down by the river, great. Release him. Repeal the mandatory minimum sentence laws. Decriminilize possession of contraband for personal use.

A 1 quart bag will probably hold a couple of ounces of pot. That is sufficient for a week or two of smoke. What is the minimum allowable purchase of alcohol?

Seems to me, we tried once a 'Grand Experiment' (18th Amendment to the Constitution) and it failed (21st Amendment to the Constitution).


Today, I believe we incarcerate many people to benefit the 'Prison Industrial Complex'.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think we should eat them.

Actually, I had this idea... see... we could use them as a source of clean energy.

Basically what we do is get them to spend several hours of each of their days walking on treadmills/hamster wheels that turn a generator and create electricty. It is clean, renewable, non-nuclear, no strip mining involved, just a basic punishment for their crime, hell, it could be volluntary, and offer them "day for day" for the work.

I will say, supprisingly, I'm in agreement with Mike about the number of people incarcerated for ******** reasons. Many of us do drugs, whether its caffiene, or alcohol, tobacco, or some other fun OTC legal substance... Certain drugs really are no worse. Of course, some are and should NOT be allowed, but I think we over regulate some, and under regulate others, and it always comes down to the allmighty dollar, and who's payin who in the government.

I wonder how many of our "overburdened" tax dollars would be saved if we just lightened up a bit.
​

 

[MJS]

Not necessarily 'drug dealer'. That term is not interchangable with drug user. But many laws do not discriminate. How do you define a 'dealer'?

Assuming a convict is serving a mandatory minimum for having a plastic bag full of marijuanna - let's say the size restricted by the TSA for your toothpast - (a 1 quart bag) - Release him and allow him to do what he chooses. If he wants to work, great. If he wants to surf, great. If he wants to live in a van, down by the river, great. Release him. Repeal the mandatory minimum sentence laws. Decriminilize possession of contraband for personal use.

A 1 quart bag will probably hold a couple of ounces of pot. That is sufficient for a week or two of smoke. What is the minimum allowable purchase of alcohol?

Seems to me, we tried once a 'Grand Experiment' (18th Amendment to the Constitution) and it failed (21st Amendment to the Constitution).


Today, I believe we incarcerate many people to benefit the 'Prison Industrial Complex'.

Hmmm..yeah, I could go along with what you're saying. But, wouldn't you think that, rather than release him, letting him do as he chooses, possibly to go back to doing what he did to get in him jail in the first place, that it'd make more sense to help him find something productive to do?

IMO, if we're going to talk about releasing people, and helping the prison population, I think it'd be good for them to give something back.

 

[mrhnau]

A 1 quart bag will probably hold a couple of ounces of pot. That is sufficient for a week or two of smoke. What is the minimum allowable purchase of alcohol?

Alcohol is not an illegal substance. However, try getting caught by a cop if you are under 18, or driving in your car with an empty beer can in your hand. BTW, pot is not the -only- substance people get thrown into jail for.

Seems to me, we tried once a 'Grand Experiment' (18th Amendment to the Constitution) and it failed (21st Amendment to the Constitution).

Today, I believe we incarcerate many people to benefit the 'Prison Industrial Complex'.

We incarcerate people because they break the law. I don't find alot of law abiding people stuck in jail.

Regarding illegal substances, I think its a bit hypocritical that some substances are banned and others not. It seems odd that pot is banned while alcohol is legal. Both can affect your interactions with others, and it seems alcohol is potentially more dangerous (drunk driving, and I don't hear of people beating up others when smoking too much pot). Cigarettes are bad for you too, but I don't see them banned. Second hand smoke is potentially bad (at least likely for your relatives). Shoot, caffeine is bad for you and addictive, but I don't see alot of people breaking into caffeine stores to get their "fix"... I might not agree with it, but I think in time pot will be legalized. Might take a few decades, but I think its coming...

 

[MA-Caver]

This is sort of a spin-off of a thread that TOD started regarding cable TV in prison cells. Now, reading thru that thread, there were mixed views. So, my question is: What should we have the inmates do? I mean, sitting around watching tv, playing a board game or lifting weights, IMO, is not too productive. Instead, I think having them work would be much more productive. Something along the lines of a chain gang IMO is much more beneficial. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them going out in small groups, along the highway, picking up trash. They're giving something back to the community, by helping to keep it clean and they're also getting out of the prison for a few hours.

Of course, I'm sure there are other assorted 'jobs' that they could do, so the above was only a start.

Any other thoughts?

"... this isn't a free ride. But rather a progressive advance to prison rehabilitation... at miminal cost to Mr. & Mrs. John Q Taxpayer...." --- the Warden in a press confrence from Shawshank Redemption

Some states I believe do have "outside" work for those trustees and prisoners who are low escape risks and well behaved. But the most violent criminals and those prone for taking a walk when nobody is looking... umm nope! Sitting on their butts and waiting for their parole (if eligible) to come in is all they get to do.

What irks me is having hundreds of prisoners sitting on death row for YEARS (Ted Bundy sat for a good 15+ years) waiting for their DOE.

 

[michaeledward]

Hmmm..yeah, I could go along with what you're saying. But, wouldn't you think that, rather than release him, letting him do as he chooses, possibly to go back to doing what he did to get in him jail in the first place, that it'd make more sense to help him find something productive to do?

IMO, if we're going to talk about releasing people, and helping the prison population, I think it'd be good for them to give something back.

If what got him in prison in the first place is a misguided 'mandatory minimum drug sentence for a non-violent offender' ... let him out and able to go back and do it again. But fix the stupid law.

In some states - husbands and wives can not have oral sex - It's a stupid law, but people don't go to jail for it. And it should be fixed, too.

And trying to mandate 'productivity' by members of society is just wrong. If someone chooses to be unproductive, let him enjoy the rewards of that unproductivity. e.g. If I don't want to pay any taxes, the easiest legal way to do that, is to not have any income or property. And there is nothing illegal with that (yet).

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, for example. Take a low level drug dealer, who is in prison for 5 yrs. Release him and do what with him? I'm assuming you're suggesting a job, community work, etc.

IMO, it would be worth a shot. If it changes someone, then hey, why not try it right? Hopefully it would work. However, if it doesn't, I think another second chance should not be an option.

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you here.

Mike

Do you even realize how many low level drug dealers there are? We could build a new prison in every city and still not have room.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is sort of a spin-off of a thread that TOD started regarding cable TV in prison cells. Now, reading thru that thread, there were mixed views. So, my question is: What should we have the inmates do? I mean, sitting around watching tv, playing a board game or lifting weights, IMO, is not too productive. Instead, I think having them work would be much more productive. Something along the lines of a chain gang IMO is much more beneficial. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them going out in small groups, along the highway, picking up trash. They're giving something back to the community, by helping to keep it clean and they're also getting out of the prison for a few hours.

Of course, I'm sure there are other assorted 'jobs' that they could do, so the above was only a start.

Any other thoughts?

Prison labor is big in this town. The job I do is related. I coat the metal, they put it together and make clip thingies for mountain climers.
Sean

 

[tellner]

If the goal is to reduce crime I'm afraid there's bad news. Education and job training are the two things that have been shown consistently, even by studies during the Bush I years, to reduce recidivism. The Maricopa County way of humiliation, mild torture and sub-human conditions doesn't work.

 

[Drac]

I might not agree with it, but I think in time pot will be legalized. Might take a few decades, but I think its coming...

Here's my 2 cents: Of all the arrests I've made over the years I have NEVER had anyone that had been smoking "reef" ever attempt to resist arrest or fight..There are people that I will not drink to this day with because of way alcohol affects them..I've ssen these same people smoke a bowl and become relaxed and friendly...

 

[tellner]

Nobody ever smoked pot and went home and beat up his wife in a ganja-induced rage. Shoplifted from 7-11 maybe. It's also infinitely less addictive and destructive than alcohol or the hardest monkey to get off your back - tobacco. Because of the idiocy of Anslinger, Hearst and a bunch of law enforcement types who would have been out of a job after Prohibition we've made a very important industrial crop illegal and put harmless people by the thousands in jail.

 

[MJS]

Some states I believe do have "outside" work for those trustees and prisoners who are low escape risks and well behaved. But the most violent criminals and those prone for taking a walk when nobody is looking... umm nope! Sitting on their butts and waiting for their parole (if eligible) to come in is all they get to do.

Yes, I think it should be for the offenders who have a minor offense. If someone killed 10 people I think the odds of escape would be something to take into consideration.

What irks me is having hundreds of prisoners sitting on death row for YEARS (Ted Bundy sat for a good 15+ years) waiting for their DOE.

Good point. Appeal after appeal after appeal. Granted there are some who are in prison for a crime they didn't commit, and it would suck to kill someone who really was innocent. But I hear ya.

Mike

 

[MJS]

If what got him in prison in the first place is a misguided 'mandatory minimum drug sentence for a non-violent offender' ... let him out and able to go back and do it again. But fix the stupid law.

But we're not coming up with a solution. Instead it'll be a revolving door.

In some states - husbands and wives can not have oral sex - It's a stupid law, but people don't go to jail for it. And it should be fixed, too.

You're kidding right?

And trying to mandate 'productivity' by members of society is just wrong. If someone chooses to be unproductive, let him enjoy the rewards of that unproductivity. e.g. If I don't want to pay any taxes, the easiest legal way to do that, is to not have any income or property. And there is nothing illegal with that (yet).

So if the person has no income and no property, where are they going to live, on the street? If thats the case, they're better off in prison. At least they'll get 3 meals, showers, a roof over their head, etc.

And I'm sorry, but I don't like paying for people that milk the system. I mean, we hear all the time about 13 yr old girls having a baby. Who pays for that?? We do. Why should I pay for someone who isn't even done being a child herself?? Funny though...I've seen people with food stamps but when they walk to the parking lot, they're getting into a Caddy. Whats wrong with that picture?

Mike

 

[stickarts]

After taking some classes on the whole justice system it is much more complicated than I realized.
My viewpoint with what little I have learned is that they should be doing something productive. I think it is better for everyone.
There are a number of jobs that can be assigned. Simply jailing someone doesn't seem to work anyway. Changing the persons behavior and attitude needs to happen.
The reality is that these are not simple matters to solve.

 

[jks9199]

I think providing some skills training/basic education support in prison is fine -- but doesn't really address the problem. Addicts need rehab, and support once their out. Similarly -- you release a convict, and he goes where? Right back to the same environment that supported his criminal choices. How long do you think it is before he's right back there...

Prisons need to crack down hard on prison gangs. Probation/parole offices need realistic case loads, and proper support. Then you'll actually begin to fight recidivism...

And many of the prisoners need to be made to understand and accept their own responsibility for their own development and their own choices...

And I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a prisoner to work in reasonable conditions and hours... After all, if I decide I don't want to go to work, my mortgage company isn't exactly going to be sympathetic to leaving me alone in my house...

 

[jks9199]

B

Quote:
In some states - husbands and wives can not have oral sex - It's a stupid law, but people don't go to jail for it. And it should be fixed, too.

You're kidding right?

It's off topic... but it's true. For example, in VA, there is still a law prohibiting "crimes against nature." (18.2-361) It's a felony. No -- it's not often prosecuted in the case of consenting adults that aren't causing problems.
It reads in part "If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony,..." (The omission is basically covering some very sick stuff not involving consenting adults.)http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-361

 

[tellner]

Yes, people wait for years on Death Row. And do you know, a hell of a lot of them are innocent. DAs with political ambitions love kill people. It makes them look all tough and manly when they can brag about how many more they've had poisoned than their opponents. But if you actually take a close look it turns out that a plurality if not a majority are innocent or didn't have any kind of competent counsel - a public defender who is paid quite literally $100 for all his work on the case does not count as competent - or were convicted based on "jailhouse confessions" to inmates who (surprise) got reduced sentences. And so on.

Remember how the Republican governor of Illinois was so disgusted with the system that he commuted all of their sentences? There was a reason. The supreme sanction is given out so unjustly and so capriciously that it's murder as often as it's justice.

There may be good reasons to keep the death penalty. I certainly think so. But keeping someone in prison until you're sure you're killing someone who really did what he was supposed to and making sure he has every chance at a fair trial is the lower limit of human decency. Justice is not there to sate the bloodlust of the Walter Mittys and those with undirected hostility and death fetishes. It's there to punish, deter or reform the guilty and protect the innocent. You can always kill someone. You can't bring the innocent back to life if you make a mistake. And there are too damned many mistakes.