what the hell kind of thinking is this

[sgtmac_46]

At least the other kids on the bus were trying to pull him off and not just watching. But without training it looks like nobody really knows what to do. Isn't if frustrating to see a situation unfold like this and know that if you were there it would have turned out differently?

It makes me weep to see people that deranged and other people who want him to stop, but don't know what to do.

My thoughts exactly.....I watch something like that and I wanted to jump through the screen and choke the little piece of dung unconscious!

 

[CHAOS]

Just a question. Was Jesus a coward?

We who are Christians are commanded to be like Jesus. I can't do it, I'm too weak. He went freely to His death, without resistance, without violence. He even cured the Centurian who was hurt when one of His disciples tried to protect Him.

Non-violence is a virtue, according to many. It requires a discipline that is beyond my ability, that's for sure. Like you, I could not stand by and watch my loved one attacked and do nothing. And perhaps many who would not offer resistance are indeed afraid for their own well-being only. Perhaps not. I don't know. I don't know if I am qualified to judge.

Jesus also told his disciples to sell their garments and buy a sword. I don't think Jesus expects us to be just like him. If he did, he never would have gone to the cross in the first place. He knew that the Christians of the world would be hunted and slaughtered. He was right. Look at how they have taken God out of schools, the courtroom, and trying to take it out of our pledge of allegence. We have allowed this country to take God out of every aspect of public life by just standing by and not fighting back. This is why I believe he told the disciples to buy swords. We were expected to fight for him, because he would not fight for himself. This is a whole other stream, but Christians were never told that we shouldnt defend ourselves, we were told not to fight for pride or out of anger. The Catholics are the ones that started the whole misconception of Jesus' intentions. Think about it. How better to control a religious zealot, than to convince him that his God wants him to be passive and take what ever the government dishes out. The Romans were masters of espionage, and that is exactly what they did with the christians.

Luke 22:36/KJV Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 

[MJS]

I apologize. it was hard for me to read too. lol Hopefuly I get it right this time.

Yes, you got it.

There is no confusion. All I am saying is there are times when calling for help isn't enough. I think we have, like two different type of scenarios in our heads. Maybe in this car accident that you're thinking of it is late at night and it's on I-95 and it's really dangerous to stop in the dark etc. Maybe in my scenario it's daytime on a quite street, and I'm comfortable with stopping and comfortable with first aid(which is a good class BTW and you should consider taking it. At least for your loved ones sake)

True, depending on location does make some difference. Of course, it could be said that despite first aid which is basic training, maybe I don't want to risk causing further injury. Another short story. I was in WalMart a few years ago. From the next aisle I heard a yell and a thud. I walked around the corner and saw an elderly lady on the ground. Apparently someone bumped into her with the carriage and knocked her down. She didn't 'appear' to be injured. One of the store mgrs. came over with another kid. He told him to get a chair and then looked at me and asked to help him lift her up. I suggested that he keep her on the ground and call an ambulance. He disregarded that, the kid came back with the chair and he told the kid to help her. I backed off and left. Why? How does she know that she isn't injured? Happens all the time in an accident. You feel fine at the moment and suddenly pain. First aid or not, I'm not a professional. I also don't want to get sued. There're people out there, ie: EMTs, Paramedics, LEOs, Firefighters, and Doctors who get paid to give care. Let them do it. They know how to properly lift, stabalize, etc. Again, calling should be enough.

Chasing after bad guys IS crazy. They're running away. Screw'em. Getting physically involved when it is appropriate is different from being a dumbass and chasing bankrobbers and stuff

So, when you approach this guy kicking his girlfriends ***, and he pulls out a gun and aims it at you, then what? What happens when you're pulling him off of his girlfriend, she pulls out a knife and stabs you. See what I'm saying? The intent is good on your part, I will give you that. But I'm looking at it from another side. Will that always happen? I don't know, but personally I'm not risking my life in a situation like that.

Again, maybe the scenarios are different between us. Maybe you're thinking of a couple drunk college kids brawlin it out in some bar. No, I wouldn't break them up because I don't think that's worth my time. I remember seeing this Dateline episode and they had a little girl(actress) playing in a park by herself. Then, they'd have some guy(actor) who would begin to coerce her to go with him even though they are strangers. Just an experiment on seeing what bystanders would do. Only a small % got involved.

The other %....did they call the police? Or did they do nothing at all?

That's what I mean. Some people are just too reluctant to get involved. That little kid is worth my time because she can't fight for herself, unlike some moron in a bar. If calling the police is all I can do than that's fine but if the conditions are good to get verbally involved than I will. If the conditions are right to get phyically involved than I will.

As I said, I respect your decision if thats what you want to do. In return, people should respect the decision to a) not do anything or b) at least call, if they don't want to get involved. As long as you're prepared to take the risks that come along with getting involved. As long as you're willing to die for 2 people who you don't know and who probably fight on a daily basis, but the girl is too dumb to leave because she thinks the guy really "loves" her, thats fine. As long as your wife and kids are ok with that, then as I said, I wish you well.

The scenarios going through my head have nothing to do with playing hero. I remember stopping at an accident last year. This elderly gentlemen crossed the median and struck a car. I dialed 911 and stopped to see if I could help before aid showed up. It was impossible to apply first aid cause he was still in the vehicle and it was slightly crushed in. I just told him that help was coming and I'd stay until they got there. Just to let him know he wasn't alone. He was very scared and I think that by just hangin out with him for a few minutes was comforting.
You know what I mean?

And I could tell you stories of the Chief of one of the fire depts that I dispatch for, who stopped his fire vehicle behind a disabled car, and stayed until PD got there. However, it was a very busy night, and he was getting upset because PD wasn't getting there quick enough. Well, nobody told you to play police officer and stop, you did it on your own, so shut the hell up and wait until the domestics, assaults, and major accidents clear up. If he wants to be a cop that bad, then he should apply.

Believe me, I've stopped, and asked if everyone was ok, if the police had been called, etc. Trust me when I say though, you'd be surprised at the number of people who do just what I do....drive by and call 911. Everybody calls. However, when I ask if there are injuries, the majority of people that I talk to say...." I don't know. I was driving by, saw the crash and called 911." or, " Don't know, but everybody is out of their cars." or "I stopped and asked. Everybody said they were ok."

Props to all those folks. They helped. Their simple call got help started.

As I said, if someone wants to physically get involved, more power to them. As long as they are willing to accept anything else that follows. If someone just wants to call, then those people, whether they could help physically or not, still deserve some props for getting involved. Afterall, they could have just looked the other way.

 

[Archangel M]

Many times just verbally commanding a person to stop has the desired effect...espically if you are on the line with 911 at the same time. It comes down to doing SOMETHING vs. just walking away. It doesnt always mean having to get physically involved. But getting "involved" in any manner can increase your risk of being injured....

 

[fangjian]

As I said, I respect your decision if thats what you want to do. In return, people should respect the decision to a) not do anything or b) at least call, if they don't want to get involved.

This is my entire problem. For people who choose to do nothing at all is ridiculous. I don't respect their decision.

We can come up with situations that fit our own agenda(for lack of a better word)
I'm talkin about getting involved. Either,a. by calling for help from afar(safest and almost just as easy as doing nothing at all), b.Getting closure and making your presence known( less safe), c. physically involved through combat or maybe like applying first aid (scariest).

And doing one or more of these options when apropriate.
I'm not chasing burglers down the street. hahaha

 

[fangjian]

Lololol. "Getting closure"

I meant getting closer

 

[Kacey]

RANT!

My teacher was doing some self-defense seminars for a local high school, which he has been doing for years. But for the first time he enocuntered a group of people who he had never met before.

Normally he tries to get people into the sruvivor mindset like this:
"Imagine a 300 pound hell's angel biker with scras and tatoos all over his face is threatening you. Who wants to rush in and fight with him?"

no one raises their hands

"now imagine that 300 pund man is pounding the person you love most in the face over and over again and then decides he's going to have his way and begins taking his pants off. Who's fighting now?"

almost everyone raises their hands...usually until this day.

Normally my teacher does this to get peole out of victim mentality and get around the fear of injury in order for them to gain the mindset that it is okay to fight back, but this time about 20 people out of 250 said that no matter what they would not jump in to fight off an attacker who was murdering their loved ones.

WHAT!?
They said they didn't want to put themselves at risk and wouldn';t want others to place themselves in danger for another's sake. It makes no sense! I gaurantee that if any of these peope where to face a life threatening situation they would pray with all their might that someone would assit them.

Have any of you met people like this? How can anyone think this way. It's so baffling!

I'm coming to this somewhat late - but I've skimmed over the entire thread and I don't think the point I'm going to make has been addressed as yet.

These are teenagers - they have, as a group, very little real-world experience on which to base their opinions, and also, as a group, tend to have a noticeable percentage of idealists who, in an earlier time, might not have been willing to stand up for their ideals - and one of those ideals is the belief that "it can't happen to me". Teens tend to think that they are bulletproof - that the bad things that happen to others cannot happen to them. Being in a situation that requires self-defense - no matter how graphically presented - is one of those situations that they don't believe can happen to them; such things only happen to that mythical "other person" who actually needs the advice being presented.

Having said that, I will also say that I have taught self-defense both inside and outside of the TKD class I teach, including to middle school students - the next-younger age group from high school, for those unfamiliar with the American school system; most are between 11 and 14 years old. The kids I see when I do this are split into 3 groups:

• those who are so fascinated by what they are seeing that they don't even think about what it's for - which is, realistically, the largest group - the ones who are thinking "You want me to yell really loud inside the school!!!! I get to grab another student and try to drop him/her on the floor!!! Or punch at him/her!!! This is so cool!
• then the second group (thankfully much smaller) who believe that this self-defense stuff is for wimps; if I need to defend myself, I'll get a knife or a gun... never mind that I have no idea how to use either one
• finally, there is the last group, which has decided that submission is easier/less dangerous/more appropriate than fighting back. Some of them have been beaten into submission - by parents, by siblings, by bullies, etc.; some have been taught that fighting back is philosophically wrong, for reasons ranging from personal to religious, depending on who is teaching them; some have simply never been confronted by a situation that would cause them to realize that they need to do anything other than float through life

Realistically, I have met adults who fit in the above categories as well - the only difference is that there is a fourth category for adults: those who realize that danger is a reality and self-defense may someday become necessary. For kids, that category often only exists for those who have personally needed to defend themselves or have a close friend who has had to do so.

I am not surprised that less than 10% of those present at the seminars you discuss say they wouldn't defend themselves; rather, I'm surprised it wasn't a larger group, given the age of the participants. Kids today have an amazing belief in their own indestructibility, and an even more amazing belief that they are entitled to a smooth, even life, where nothing they dislike will ever occur - and they've been taught that sense of entitlement very carefully and completely by their parents, the media, their friends, and many other sources of information in their lives. As a teacher, fighting against that sense of entitlement - the "how dare you flunk me just because I did no work - I'm smart, I deserve an A" - with mommy or daddy right behind them, just as loud - that is, in many ways, the hardest part of my job.

 

[Aiki Lee]

good point

 

[Phoenix44]

You know, if you want to issue gratuitous insults about the various political parties, you can go to The Study.

 

[kyosa]

RANT!

My teacher was doing some self-defense seminars for a local high school, which he has been doing for years. But for the first time he enocuntered a group of people who he had never met before.

Normally he tries to get people into the sruvivor mindset like this:
"Imagine a 300 pound hell's angel biker with scras and tatoos all over his face is threatening you. Who wants to rush in and fight with him?"

no one raises their hands

"now imagine that 300 pund man is pounding the person you love most in the face over and over again and then decides he's going to have his way and begins taking his pants off. Who's fighting now?"

almost everyone raises their hands...usually until this day.

Normally my teacher does this to get peole out of victim mentality and get around the fear of injury in order for them to gain the mindset that it is okay to fight back, but this time about 20 people out of 250 said that no matter what they would not jump in to fight off an attacker who was murdering their loved ones.

WHAT!?
They said they didn't want to put themselves at risk and wouldn';t want others to place themselves in danger for another's sake. It makes no sense! I gaurantee that if any of these peope where to face a life threatening situation they would pray with all their might that someone would assit them.

Have any of you met people like this? How can anyone think this way. It's so baffling!

It is sad to see stuff like this. This is not the first time or the only time that this type of behavior has been seen. Lt Col. Dave Grossman studies school violence and shootings and one thing has been common until Virginia Tech. The one thing in common has been fight or flight. All of the kids in all the school shootings have chose to fight or flee, but at Virginia Tech many of the kids sat in their chairs and waited to die. One girl put her head in her hand with her elbow resting on her desk just waiting to die. She was shot that way and that is how the Police found her.

What are we teaching our kids? Obviously we are failing to teach our young many things including morals and basic survival skills. Basic survival for any species is to run or defend yourself when attacked-all creatures for the most part instinctually know this. No one had to teach me to defend those that I loved-or if they did it was taught at such an early age I don't remember it being taught.

Pure and simple there are times when people will have to fight or choose to cease to exist. You will die if you don't fight in certain situations. There are also times when others will die if you don't act, and if it is a person that you love then you will probably be haunted by your failure to act for your whole life. Even if you don't know that person and they died because you failed to act you will probably be haunted by your cowardice. Failure to act is cowardice!

One way of looking at people is to divide them into three groups: sheep, sheep dogs and wolfs. Sheep go about their business every day and for the most part dont hurt anyone and are good people. Wolfs are predators and they like sheep-they make easy victims. Sheep dogs have fangs, snarl and bark and have the capacity for violence-they kinda look like wolves even. But Sheep dogs love the sheep, protect them and never prey on them. When the wolves come to prey on the sheep that is when the Sheep dogs shine-they sacrifice they're own safety and lives even to protect the sheep. In my opinion anyone calling themselves or thinking of themselves as a Martial Artist should also think of themselves as a Sheep dog.

To simply stand by while anyone, especially a loved one, is attacked by predators, demonstrates cowardice and a lack of moral character.

 

[MJS]

This is my entire problem. For people who choose to do nothing at all is ridiculous. I don't respect their decision.

We can come up with situations that fit our own agenda(for lack of a better word)
I'm talkin about getting involved. Either,a. by calling for help from afar(safest and almost just as easy as doing nothing at all), b.Getting closure and making your presence known( less safe), c. physically involved through combat or maybe like applying first aid (scariest).

And doing one or more of these options when apropriate.
I'm not chasing burglers down the street. hahaha

I think for the most part, we're on the same page, although we still view some things differently. Of course, I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts on when I asked:

"So, when you approach this guy kicking his girlfriends ***, and he pulls out a gun and aims it at you, then what? What happens when you're pulling him off of his girlfriend, she pulls out a knife and stabs you. See what I'm saying? The intent is good on your part, I will give you that. But I'm looking at it from another side. Will that always happen? I don't know, but personally I'm not risking my life in a situation like that."

So, your wife and kids are 100% ok with you physically getting involved with people that you dont even know, and run the risk of getting seriously hurt or killed....all because you wanted to do more than just call for help.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You know, if you want to issue gratuitous insults about the various political parties, you can go to The Study.

True, that.

 

[fangjian]

I think for the most part, we're on the same page, although we still view some things differently. Of course, I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts on when I asked:

Sorry

There might be something better but here's my view on this;
Level 0-Do nothing'when you could do something ( driving past a horrible accident and not calling 911 when you cell is sittin on the passenger seat)
Level 1- Calling for help ' but your presence isnt nesesarily known to the persons in crisis'( above situation and you call for help)
Level 2- You presence is known to the persons in crisis 'and you stickin around'( you see someone getting beaten up and you yell "HEY LEAVE THEM ALONE IVE CALLED THE COPS"
Level 3-you are now hands on( above situation except you have gotten phyiccally involved or maybe you see someone choking and you apply the heimlich manuever 'because you know it'

"So, when you approach this guy kicking his girlfriends ***, and he pulls out a gun and aims it at you, then what?

I guess put my hands up, try to be calm and persuade him not to kill me

What happens when you're pulling him off of his girlfriend, she pulls out a knife and stabs you.

Then I'm bleeding I guess. Hopefull if anyone witnessed they won't be at level 0. lol

See what I'm saying? The intent is good on your part, I will give you that. But I'm looking at it from another side. Will that always happen? I don't know, but personally I'm not risking my life in a situation like that."

Yeah I know what you're saying. From your posts it seems to me that you will never go to Levels 2-3, and if someone wants to do Level 0, that's ok with you. Am I right?

So, your wife and kids are 100% ok with you physically getting involved with people that you dont even know, and run the risk of getting seriously hurt or killed....all because you wanted to do more than just call for help.

My wife knows i'm not a moron and is comfortable with my judgement. I'm not running into burglarized houses or giving mouth to mouth resusitacion to some addict(or anyone for that matter) on the street. Hey how do you know I'm married w/ kids? My website?

 

[MJS]

Sorry

There might be something better but here's my view on this;
Level 0-Do nothing'when you could do something ( driving past a horrible accident and not calling 911 when you cell is sittin on the passenger seat)
Level 1- Calling for help ' but your presence isnt nesesarily known to the persons in crisis'( above situation and you call for help)
Level 2- You presence is known to the persons in crisis 'and you stickin around'( you see someone getting beaten up and you yell "HEY LEAVE THEM ALONE IVE CALLED THE COPS"
Level 3-you are now hands on( above situation except you have gotten phyiccally involved or maybe you see someone choking and you apply the heimlich manuever 'because you know it'

I think for the sake of the thread this is a good breakdown.

I guess put my hands up, try to be calm and persuade him not to kill me

There was a thread on here not long ago about a guy who has a CCW, was in a Burger King and shot the guy who was robbing the place. I commented the following:

"As always, anytime I find myself in these types of threads, I say the same thing....I'm not anti-gun. I have no issues with someone owning or carrying. However, if that is what you choose to do, then make sure that you can handle yourself in situations like we see here. To think that an occasional trip to the range, where its just you and the paper target that doesnt shoot back, with nobody else around, with pleanty of light and no stress, well, I think those folks are kidding themselves and the risk of playing hero runs higher than if you did nothing at all. Bottom line...be safe, use your head, and if you decide to act, make damn sure you know what you're doing. "

Same thing here. If you dont want to act, thats fine. If you do, then make damn sure you are willing to accept what comes your way. I don't carry a gun, so if I saw someone getting their butt kicked, I know nothing about either of these people. Maybe it sounds selfish, but I am not going to risk my life getting involved in something that doesnt concern me. I get involved by calling and staying at a safe distance if possible, to continue to provide the cops details of whats happening.

Then I'm bleeding I guess. Hopefull if anyone witnessed they won't be at level 0. lol

Then again, if you didnt get involved you wouldn't be bleeding.

Yeah I know what you're saying. From your posts it seems to me that you will never go to Levels 2-3, and if someone wants to do Level 0, that's ok with you. Am I right?

Nope, I probably wont go to 2 or 3, unless its someone I know. Again, sound selfish? Probably does, but at least I can say that the person that I know that I'm helping probably wont start kicking my *** too. LOL.

Seriously though....the majority of the time, I will most likely do something, and that will be calling. Most recently, I was in a shopping plaza not far from my condo. I noticed a car, engine running, with a guy slumped against the drivers door. He was in the car. Now, I could have pulled up behind him, got out and knocked to see if he was ok, but instead I called the police. I actually stayed in the plaza until they got there, and it seemed that he was just sleeping.

I could have kept driving, but didn't because had I done that and found out later the guy died or was already dead, I'd probably feel like ****. So it satisfied me to know that he was ok. I did my part. I called for help. Help came and the guy was ok. I can't control what others do, nor can I demand they do something, nor should I shun them for not doing anything. If they don't then they dont. I accept the fact that some people just dont want to get involved. I, like you, get involved, just not to your extent.

My wife knows i'm not a moron and is comfortable with my judgement. I'm not running into burglarized houses or giving mouth to mouth resusitacion to some addict(or anyone for that matter) on the street. Hey how do you know I'm married w/ kids? My website?

My wife would probably not want me getting physically involved, but has no issues with me calling and getting involved that way.

Yes, I looked at your site. Very nice BTW. Seeing that we live in the same state, if you're ever interested in getting together for a workout, let me know.

Mike

 

[fangjian]

Then again, if you didnt get involved you wouldn't be bleeding.

Damn you mjs, you said I got stabbed and what would I do if I got stabbed. lol This is not my fault.

I do understand that this does happen.

Nope, I probably wont go to 2 or 3, unless its someone I know. Again, sound selfish? Probably does, but at least I can say that the person that I know that I'm helping probably wont start kicking my *** too. LOL.

Ooh you said 'probably' wouldn't got to 2 or 3. Which means you might. I knew you were a hero like me.lol

I could have kept driving, but didn't because had I done that and found out later the guy died or was already dead, I'd probably feel like ****. So it satisfied me to know that he was ok. I did my part. I called for help. Help came and the guy was ok. I can't control what others do, nor can I demand they do something, nor should I shun them for not doing anything. If they don't then they dont. I accept the fact that some people just dont want to get involved. I, like you, get involved, just not to your extent.

I think I generally shun those who do nothing 'and could'.

Yes, I looked at your site. Very nice BTW. Seeing that we live in the same state, if you're ever interested in getting together for a workout, let me know.

Mike

You are too kind. Yeah no doubt. We aren't that far away so let me know if you guys have any seminars etc. You are welcome at my place anytime. I am mostly interested in teaching Balintawak lately. Where do you train/teach?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Just a question. Was Jesus a coward?

We who are Christians are commanded to be like Jesus. I can't do it, I'm too weak. He went freely to His death, without resistance, without violence. He even cured the Centurian who was hurt when one of His disciples tried to protect Him.

Non-violence is a virtue, according to many. It requires a discipline that is beyond my ability, that's for sure. Like you, I could not stand by and watch my loved one attacked and do nothing. And perhaps many who would not offer resistance are indeed afraid for their own well-being only. Perhaps not. I don't know. I don't know if I am qualified to judge.

Sir, i have to say that what you wrote here was one of the most humbling things I've read in quite a while. I would consider myself a christian because I sincerely believe, in the same instance I consider myself weak because I still let my mouth and sometimes my fists get the better of me.

I will say that I do disagree with one thing, and that is that Jesus did engage in warfare and as a result-violence. The only difference is that Jesus was engaged with spiritual violence. Jesus was given the order to go to Earth and die for the sake of saving humanity from spiritual death and he did so selflessly. In the same instance the American serviceman throughout this nation's history, has gone to foreign lands to willingly fight and sometimes lay down his life to free hundreds of millions from tyranny and death. In some cases he was ridiculed, mocked and spat on for doing so. I can't think of anything more Christlike. Thanks for your service.

 

[MJS]

Damn you mjs, you said I got stabbed and what would I do if I got stabbed. lol This is not my fault.

I do understand that this does happen.

Ooh you said 'probably' wouldn't got to 2 or 3. Which means you might. I knew you were a hero like me.lol

LOL, of course I also said unless it was someone I knew. I'm not jumping to the aid of some guy and girl fighting on the street corner or in a parked car, when I dont know who they are.

I think I generally shun those who do nothing 'and could'.

And thats fine. Keep in mind that some people don't want to get involved out of fear of retaliation. I've had people call things in, and say that they won't speak to an officer face to face, but they'll talk on the phone. I mean think about it...if you live in a bad neighborhood, and fear the gangs, the punks, the drug dealers, you cant really blame someone for not wanting to do anything. Again, there are ones that do, but they still shield themselves by wanting to be anonymous and again, thats fine. They did their part and thats all that matters.

You are too kind. Yeah no doubt. We aren't that far away so let me know if you guys have any seminars etc. You are welcome at my place anytime. I am mostly interested in teaching Balintawak lately. Where do you train/teach?

I train at Middletown Kenpo. I also train Arnis. Thanks for the offer to train. I think it would be cool to exchange ideas.

Mike

 

[fangjian]

And thats fine. Keep in mind that some people don't want to get involved out of fear of retaliation. I've had people call things in, and say that they won't speak to an officer face to face, but they'll talk on the phone. I mean think about it...if you live in a bad neighborhood, and fear the gangs, the punks, the drug dealers, you cant really blame someone for not wanting to do anything. Again, there are ones that do, but they still shield themselves by wanting to be anonymous and again, thats fine. They did their part and thats all that matters.

Good point. I'm just talking about lazy people though.

I train at Middletown Kenpo. I also train Arnis. Thanks for the offer to train. I think it would be cool to exchange ideas.

Mike

I'll let you know of any upcoming seminars or anything.

 

[chinto]

hay make your call on the situation.. if you call the tune you may have to pay a piper, but will you sleep at night if you do not become involved? your call, and you pay the butcher perhaps. Either way if you do step in some one will be paying a butchers bill it's very likely.

 

[Zero]

If one is not prepared to defend or stand up for one's loved ones; it's time for those loved ones to find another loved one.


I ain't got nothing against no hippies or Jesus.