What martial arts fits my parameters?

[Kung Fu Wang]

My anti grappling has always been grappling. When Tony tried to grab me, I used circling arms.

When your opponent tries to

- under hook your arm, if you keep your arm vertical up, he can never get an under hook on you.
- over hook your arm, if you rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's arm, he can never get an over hook on you.
- get a head lock on you, if you dodge your head under and push his elbow away with your hand, he can never get a head lock on you.
- ...

Can someone without any grappling training be able to do that? I truly don't think so.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Nah, most BJJ practitioners who practice BJJ as a martial art agree with you on that. (I certainly would.)

There is an increasing contingent of BJJ practitioners who only train for sport and so aren't concerned about dealing with punches or being complete martial artists, but they wouldn't necessarily disagree with you, they just don't care about "complete MA training".

There are a few who think they can train just the sport grappling aspect and somehow will be automatically capable of dealing with strikes despite never training with them, but I'd say those are a delusional minority.

One of the downsides of the UFC era, was the idea of overreliance on BJJ's non striking aspects, even basic things like pummeling seemed to be missing. Next thing you know, 30 years pass and BJJ comps have largely turned into guard play. Is it fun? Sure, but it's also low on the totem pole, which is a BIG wakeup call to people when they join MMA coming from a straight BJJ school. I call this the "Ouch Factor", "like..you mean martial arts hurts??"

And we just had a whole generation of young people grow up actually believing kung fu (and other traditional arts were fancy and ineffective, not realizing learning to take strikes, and breathe under stress, is a huge part of that. So basic but hard, it will make people quit before they even get to the fun stuff.

And, the large number of TMA schools that fell away from alive sparring on top of that, practically ruined many systems to the point they are still trying to regain their reputation, which in some cases took centuries to develop.

I watched one of my fav movies today, "The Forgotten Kingdom", which I consider Jet Li and Jackie Chan's best MA movie. And it's packed with awesome wisdom, right down to the actual meaning of kung fu, and why it's about learning to expand your limitations.

On topic, I could not do a full squat until I practiced kung fu for a year, and then I could do it at will, but especially in BJJ and Judo.

And I can honestly say in any fight or sparring, I will prefer the ground over standing. I'm much better at groundwork because of kung fu, and even my San Shou and Muay Thai are not as developed as good old ground submission and gnp.

And I happened to learn BJJ from a few people who especially did not forgo either stand-up work, grip fighting, no gi, and pummeling, because they wanted to create well rounded combatants, not just submission competitors. And they have both.

I feel really lucky.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

non striking aspects,

One way to solve that issue can be to use sparring as warm up in the beginning of the class.

In my school during the beginning of the class, students will make 2 circles. The person in the inner circle has to spar against the person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the inner circle rotates. Students then get a different sparring partner.

I see no reason that school such as Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Taiji for health, ballroom dance, Yoga, ... can't use this method. When you treat sparring as warm up, people don't think it's a big deal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you treat sparring as warm up, people don't think it's a big deal.

Most people that I know who don't like sparring are people who think that it's same as a full on fight filled with pain. Some people talk about hard sparring and the punishment that they take and that scares people too. My thought on sparring is that intensity should only increase when ones ability to defend that intensity increases.

The other thing is that sparring should be recognized for it's exercise benefit. Even no contact sparring can be tiring. I think more people would spar if they realized that there are different types of sparring used to accomplish different types of goals. It doesn't have to be about winning or knocking someone out.

 

[Oily Dragon]

One way to solve that issue can be to use sparring as warm up in the beginning of the class.

In my school during the beginning of the class, students will make 2 circles. The person in the inner circle has to spar against the person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the inner circle rotates. Students then get a different sparring partner.

I see no reason that school such as Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Taiji for health, ballroom dance, Yoga, ... can't use this method. When you treat sparring as warm up, people don't think it's a big deal.

Well It's already wrestling warmup 101, and I did similar stuff in BJJ but not kung fu or judo (typically you see more calisthenics, Qigong etc, sparring/Sanda/randori once everyone's blood and qi are in flow).

Great scene in Foxcatcher showing this can get quickly. Probably why wrestling is so damn effective at kicking people's butts too.

I think it probably depends on the training condition of the student. Some need more warmup than others, and I've seen people get hurt in the first minute of warmup who forget this, even if they are well trained.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The other thing is that sparring should be recognized for it's exercise benefit. Even no contact sparring can be tiring. I think more people would spar if they realized that there are different types of sparring used to accomplish different types of goals. It doesn't have to be about winning or knocking someone out.

I'm currently teaching someone Muay Thai and San Shou and for a while I just did distance exercises, nothing but legs, with guard up.

It's always funny watching a new student's guard tire out after a minute and fall over the over again. "Keep your hands up!". Never fails. Spend 10m on just showing them 3 or 4 stepping patterns, and then 10m of moving around the room and they gas out after like 60s at first. Legs are fine, arms are limp.

There is some good Qigong for developing a strong way to keep the guard up. I should do a thread on it. Very applicable to Jow Ga, MT, boxing etc. Even pure grappling arts.

 

[marvin8]

Anti-striking assumes the fists are flying. If A takes B down before B even has chance to punch at A, I won't call that anti-striking.

Anti-grappling assumes the grappling has already happened (such as a head lock). If A knocks B down before B even has chance to throw A, I won't call that anti-grappling.

So anti-striking you have to train defending against strikes (and kicks). Same as anti-grappling, you need to prevent the takedown and keep it standing.

When A knocks/takes B down while B is doing nothing, I won't call that "anti" anything.

This is anti-grappling. The grappling has happened to a striker. The striker has to deal with it (assume the striker has no grappling training).

Ok, that is your definition. Starting at :17, O'Malley does "anti-grappling" with whizzer kick out before KO Sterling. What do you believe is not possible?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok, that is your definition. At :17, O'Malley does "anti-grappling" with whizzer kick out before KO Sterling. What do you believe is not possible?

I see no grappling at 0.17. The grappling start from 0.20 - 0.32.

 

[marvin8]

I see no grappling at 0.17. The grappling start from 0.20 - 0.32.

It is anti-grappling, So do you believe anti-grappling is possible? If not, why not?

I don't believe anti-grappling is possible. But I do believe anti-striking is possible.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is technically nothing forcing him to strike while standing.


I would happily turn a guy in to a bobble head if they don't want to hit me back.

Don’t get too happy about it, that doesn’t jive with your stoicism vibe.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't believe anti-grappling is possible. But I do believe anti-striking is possible. I have bet against someone that:

- if he can punch my head before I can get a head lock on him, I'll pay him $10.
- if I can get a head lock on him before can punch my head, he'll pay me $10.

We had tested this for 3 rounds. I made myself $30.

The strategy for a pure wrestler to deal with a striker is to disable his opponent's punching arms ASAP. How to do that? It's not an easy task.

IMO, long guards such as:

- rhino guard,
- Chinese zombie arms,
- double inward hook punches.

that your hands are closer to your opponent's head are better than short guards that you give your opponent plenty of striking space. When you extend your arms as far as you can (you will lose your own punching ability), if your opponent wants to punch you, his hand has to pass your hand first. At that moment, if you can separate his arms away from his head, you can move in at that moment and obtain a clinch such as

- head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- ...

Here is an example to obtain a bear hug and then take down. He used kicks to close the distance. But he didn't throw any punch to obtain his clinch.

I will train with you and pay you for lessons and happily submit to you if you can headlock me before I can punch you. To be clear, I believe you can do it, but I want the experience anyway.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is anti-grappling, So do you believe anti-grappling is possible? If not, why not?

Everything has a counter, EVERYTHING.
.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I was gonna say, I thought we were discussing MMA fighter (not a "striker") vs wrestler.

If you're talking pure vs pure, sure the grappler has a theoretical advantage, but it's not a sure thing. One good punch can KO anyone, or at least ring their bell, which makes everything harder. If they can control the arms, and especially if things like knees and kinks aren't allowed, it really limits a pure striker. But MMA people (or even San Shou) fighters don't have that problem if they're decently trained.

And also remember, strikers practice the art of getting punched in the face all the time (not getting punched is always better but ish happens) and continuing, sometimes for a long time (rounds and rounds).

Wrestlers practice impact in a very different way, even Judoka and shuai Jiao players are not accustomed to it, And you fight now you train.

I have been punched in the face with vigor, both with and without head protection, but continued fighting because training. But I guarantee you most people, even wrestlers, arent used to it and will usually do into full deer in headlights mode...also very common even with MMA and standup striking newbs.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is anti-grappling, So do you believe anti-grappling is possible? If not, why not?

Since we have different anti-grappling definition, I don't believe we can agree with each other.

When a grappler hasn't done anything to you, you knock him down, that's not anti-grappling by my definition.

Anti-grappling is when grappling has started, you deal with the grappling situation. There are some special skills that required to master in order to deal with grappling. Without mastering those skill, anti-grappling is impossible.

For example, when your opponent has a bear hug on you, you push his forehead to counter his bear hug. That's anti-grappling. Does a striker train this technique? I don't think so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

This is why I believe "not to get punched in the face" should be treated as the highest priority in our MA training. What's the best training that can help us to reach to that goal is what we are discussing here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Everything has a counter, EVERYTHING.
.

Some counters are more effective that the others.

For example, when your opponent picks up your leading leg and try to take you down,

- How many different counters can you apply?
- Which counter is the most effective one?
- Can you apply those counters effectively without training?

 

[Oily Dragon]

It is anti-grappling, So do you believe anti-grappling is possible? If not, why not?

Is it anti-grappling, or was that just a very desperate and weak attempt at a single leg takedown? I just see a poor attempt.

This is the issue I have with "anti" it's not like what he did was an effective technique, other than pushing and hopping against a bad technique. Anything could have worked.

Iow what he did would not have stopped a good single leg shoot at all, all else being equal.

The usual defense against a single leg is to sprawl or better, get out of the way. Otherwise all it takes to go down is a little leverage between the ankle and knee.

If I try to shoulder throw you, and you drop your weight, that's not "anti grapple" is it? It's just grappling.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Some counters are more effective that the others.

For example, when your opponent picks up your leading leg and try to take you down,

And you just pointed it out...single leg takedown doesn't "pick up", it drives forward and down.

Which is why it's important to get low on the shoot.

Can you throw someone picking up or catching a leg? Sure, happens in San Shou all the time. But I would argue it's harder to do than, say, a BJJ single leg, which like a well timed judo or shuai Jiao throw or sweep, is all physics and doesnt require much strength.

 

[Oily Dragon]

a bear hug on you, you push

So again, if "anti-grappling" is also grappling, why do we need the anti.

And if striking is "anti grappling" what's wrong with just calling it a strike.

Or just generally, like someone just pointed out the obvious, "counter".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

single leg takedown doesn't "pick up", it drives forward and down.

Both single leg and double legs can be drive down or pick up. The pick up motion can cause more damage. If you can pick up your opponent, turn him horizontal, and upside down, you can smash his head to the ground and end fight right there. In training, you may just pick your opponent up, turn him horizontal, and smash him down.