what makes it kenpo?

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Awwww....is little Touch"o"Death mad because I embarrassed him in another thread???? Go cry to your momma boy. Just because you don't have a friggin clue about what your talking about, doesn't mean the rest of us don't!!!!


:wah: :lol:

Listen KenpoDragon, I didn't realiize I was addressing a twelve year old but just remember its not our job to make sure you take your meds so get it on a schedule. I see you think your way of doing Kenpo is the one and only way of doing things, and you wonder how people talking in different languages understand eachother, but not all of us are blessed with your naivette'. There is a great big scary world out there that you know nothing about; I'm not asking you to look. Just realize its there.

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
I think I'm a little troubled by lines like "I see guys like you all the time and I have to wonder if it's because you're not getting the instruction you need to really interpret the art, or there's a larger agenda at work."

I'm not trying to start trouble! Also, my instructor was tops! (He is now retired and I have limited access to him). He is in the top 2 most functional martial artists I know! (Too close to call)

My problem is this (I am speaking personally about my training environment--yours may not correspond on all points. If it doesn't, try to see why the differences might give me a certain perspective):

We teach a number of techniques and patterns and forms.

The tech's etc. are prearranged (with numerous variations)

We do not expect that if our students got into a real fight they would use a curriculum technique move for move (because of the dynamic and chaotic environment of an actual situation).

We use the techniques as examples and say "these are just samples of how it *could* go. Use them as an idea, until you can spontaneously act using appropriate measures."

We spar using *very* limited rules: limited targets & tools, no weapons, no grappling, etc.

After 15 years of using techniques and katas I am just NOW reaching a point where spontaneous action is appropriate, speedy, powerful, etc. to the point where I am confident it could be effective.



Now again, these are the circumstances that I find myself in--your training experience may be different. Perhaps your school does much more grappling, or weapons sparring, or spontanaeity drills than mine. But this is the environment that has given me this perspective.

Now, if our goal is to teach effective improvisation, why not teach something like this:

-introduce skills (teach the basic, just the way you do now)

-drill the basics in specific and alive ways to foster attributes, especially timing, positioning, and improvisation.

-increase the nature of the drills so as to become more realistic (while maintaining safety, of course) so that improvisation branches out

-spar (safely) with a growing number of allowed tools and situations, including allowing clinching, striking in the clinch, takedowns, grappling, etc. occaisionally introduce weapons, multiple attackers, etc.


This kind of training environment teaches improvisation through application of good technique in a variety of situations, without the use of prearranged techniques and katas. Normally, it is considered a JKD Concepts approach (or SBG, if you want to be really specific).

Students who I have begun using this method with (as early as their first class) have shown tremendous improvement over others. They respond more quickly, and more appropriately on a consistent basis, even at white belt. They are still working on the same MOVES and doing them the same WAY as the other students, and the other instructors are teaching them the same way as their classmates. They are still Kenpo students.

It seems to me that I am teaching them Kenpo the JKD way. Does that seem right to anyone else? I am allowing them to freely learn and experiment in an alive fashion, while still introducing and developing the moves of kenpo karate. Now, I have only introduced maybe 75% of what I've listed above: I have not yet introduced many students to weapon sparring, or sparring that includes both striking and grappling. Also, multiple opponent sparring has been extremely limited. However, it is working, and working well. They are developing skills more quickly than the other students at the school.

Again, I am not saying that this is the method everyone should follow. However, it is a method that (for me) is showing vast advantages over other methods. So is it Kenpo the JKD way? I think that might be an appropriate way of thinking about it. Would I call it that? Never. It's Kenpo in my book, until the basic moves / concepts undergo radical change.

Best,

~Chris

Chris,
I'm glad to hear that you still call it kenpo. The fact is, you should. The training methods you are using aren't exclusive to JKD or BJJ and they certainly aren't new to kenpo. My own system lineage has utilized similar training methods for over 30 years. And you need to consider an important possibility--that the reason your students progress more quickly isn't because you have SUBSTITUTED certain training methods, but because you have SUPPLIMENTED their training methods. If you were to remove the rest of the kenpo curriculum training methods from your students' program, you would likely see an actual decrease in thieir skills. Why? Because one set of methods teaches the student how to move correctly, while the other set of methods teaches them how to move appropriately.
So, be careful about "eliminating" the "traditional" kenpo training methods. Too many people have already tried to reinvent the wheel to find out it worked better before they started tampering with it. However, I would certainly continue your training in the manner you have been doing; the two training methods naturally complement and support each other. This is why so many other kenpo instructors already train this way.

Best wishes for your continued success.

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I do not mean to slam you twinkletoes. I rarely feel the need to feel superior ... well at least to try to prove my superiority or the superiority of my Art ... Cuz I Ain't.

I have been around way to long to feel comfortable with your "changing Kenpo" per se. Method of teaching, hopefully, is what you are referring to. Your years in Kenpo, while worthy of respect, have to be tempered by the fact that at 11years old, or 14, or 17 or 21 you cannot understand or necessarily absorb the lessons that were being taught at the time. Now, you can revisit them and, contingent on your subjective recall, re-analyze, evaluate, and prioritize your lessons. I really encourage you to sit down and do this.

I am specifically thinking about my own epiphanies over the years. OK, so I got black, then I got another black (in Kenpo this time, circa 1986 under the Steven LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Gary Swan, Brian Duffy lineage.) Then after meeting Dennis Conatser, Ed Parker, Howard Silva, Bob Liles, etc. I get to start all over again and learn it all anew. Maybe I am being somewhat pushy here, but you have to understand that there is so much to learn in your own Art, it staggers the mind, literally! There are layers and layers and layers of Kenpo. You can take it as far as you want to ... or not. But don't blame Kenpo for the limitations you chose to place on it.

It is OK if you want to do BJJ or JKD. I have both at my school ... but they are different Arts. I have more than I can handle being in John Sepulveda's organization, under Tommy Burks, with friends like Dennis Conatser who help me challenge my own Journey regularly. A true mark that you have attained wisdom (and maturity) is when you realize how much you don't know. In this case I am specifically addressing Kenpo. Heck, I have been at it since 1979, 24 years now, with a decade of other martial arts prior to that, and I am still opening my eyes and mind in amazement whenever I have a lesson with John Sepulveda, Dennis Conatser, or my teacher.

You are a 3rd in an Art that takes a lifetime to evaluate, dissect, re-evaluate, and learn to apply. Maybe you need to look at it from another perspective, or spend some time with some of the other Seniors in the Art, they all have a different perspective on material that came from the same source ... Ed Parker.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.
:asian:

Michael,
an excellent post with sound advice. I myself often refer to kenpo as an "onion" whose layers are only exposed through dedication and experience. I also agree that too many people try to "change" kenpo before truly understanding it (something I make no claim to doing, please understand). It is also one of the reasons people feel the need to "cross-train" in other systems. Unfortunately, oftentimes, what they have gone to other systems to seek was always present in kenpo to begin with. That is not to say that cross-training is bad--when done for the right reasons and with the right perspective. It can be a great way to gain new perspectives and insights in the art and to increase knowledge in specific aspects of combat. But again, it takes a fairly mature martial artist (another thing I am not claiming to be) to know where, when and how to apply cross-training effectively.
That being said, so long as the "traditional" (for lack of a better word) kenpo training methods are not de-emphasized or abandoned there can be a lot of gain in introducing certain "alive" training methods. My own lineage has utilized such supplimental methods for the past 30 years, to great effect. As my own instructor used to say, "if you find something of value, add it--but never throw any of the KENPO away."

Salute,

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
DUDE, you really need to chill a bit, please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Out of respect for you Mr.O'briant, I will chill. I do apologize for my actions, but honestly, it was "self-defense". Touch"o"Death attacked me first.

:asian: KenpoDragon

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
it's all Kenpo no matter what changes one makes.

I strongly disagree. If the basics are changed and the fundamentals are different then it isn't Kenpo anymore. There is a point that things cease to have a relationship. Why just the other day I was talking to my cousin 20 times removed about this very thing, and... well, I hope you get the point. :shrug:

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Out of respect for you Mr.O'briant, I will chill. I do apologize for my actions, but honestly, it was "self-defense". Touch"o"Death attacked me first.

:asian: KenpoDragon

Thanks, and I can appreciate your passion for what we do, I'm the same way (I need meds too I guess LOL) but have learned a little more temperance with these forums over the last few months so I know how you feel. Shoot me an email sometime to exchange phone #'s, you're in LA so maybe sometime we can get together to share some of that passion, and don't call me Mr. or Sir, it's Clyde, I like my name, it reflects a long line of good genes and heritage.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[twinkletoes]

Klondike93 -

My website used to list Kenpo. After a couple of people asked me about it, I started to realize that I wouldn't be satisfied teaching the curriculum in the same manner I had been taught. I took it off the site until I could reach a decision about what it was that I felt needed changing. I have not yet reached a decision (hence this thread).

Michael Billings -

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't take it as a slam. And if you'll read my earlier posts carefully, I have taken pains to be clear that I am only changing the training methods, not the methods of application.

I completely understand that I do not know the whole of my art. I am very aware that there is much left to learn. However, I am losing my desire to learn more things, because the teaching method through which I am learning is so outdated and inefficient. You said yourself "You are a 3rd in an Art that takes a lifetime to evaluate, dissect, re-evaluate, and learn to apply." I am looking to teach my students so that they will learn to apply in less than a lifetime (I know I'm twisting your quote a little, but I feel it's more accurate in my circumstances than you might realize).

Steve Howard -

Thanks to you for your encouragement. I don't aim to reinvent the wheel--only to reach the same destination faster. I recognize the distinction you make about substitution vs. supplementation: you will just have to take my word that it is working the way I described. I strongly agree with the words you've written.

Best,

~Chris

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Billy Lear
I strongly disagree. If the basics are changed and the fundamentals are different then it isn't Kenpo anymore. There is a point that things cease to have a relationship.
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

When does it stop being kenpo? As long as the moves are logical its Kenpo. kenpo differs from boxing because the strikes are limmited to thrusts and the rules allow for a few stance variations. It is then Kenpo with said restrictions. The names of the kenpo techs have no bearing on you as a fighter. Tae kwon do fighters kick and punch; the good ones use point of origin, stabilize there base, create distance, get off the line of attack, ect.
what is not kenpo about a good fighter in any style.
You've been drinking a mighty tall bottle of cough syrup if you think you are privy to secret stuff that the rest of the world doesn't know. Ed parker put it into simple terms he taught and thought at different levels based on who he was dealing with. The krav Maga style of fighting is Kenpo through a different filter; its a little less complex but maybe kenpo is taught at to high a level. Maybe we push the lower belts to fill in the dead space before they have solid stance and striking skills. Lets face it some of the techs are ,at best, unusefull. I say a kenpoist is a competent fighter, not a person that has memorized the terms and techs of an encylclopedia of kenpo. Sometimes its just physical verbage, when a simple and direct plan will do.

 

[twinkletoes]

Well said!

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
The krav Maga style of fighting is Kenpo through a different filter; its a little less complex but maybe kenpo is taught at to high a level. Maybe we push the lower belts to fill in the dead space before they have solid stance and striking skills. Lets face it some of the techs are ,at best, unusefull. I say a kenpoist is a competent fighter, not a person that has memorized the terms and techs of an encylclopedia of kenpo. Sometimes its just physical verbage, when a simple and direct plan will do.

So if I use your method of reasoning here... A Volkswagon is a BMW, only a little less complex. Not that they could both simply be cars. I guess Volkswagons just aren't good enough to have their own identity anymore... we'll just call 'em not so good BMWs.

I still disagree. I feel that Logic can be found in many Martial Systems and that it is arrogant to call everything Kenpo.

I disagree with you about the techniques. I feel that they are all useful.

I haven't memorized all of the terms from the Kenpo books, but I can navigate them just fine. I wonder... does that make me a bad Kenpoist?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow, I missed a lot by not checking in this weekend...

Let me say a few things:

1) Kenpo is more than just Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Kenpo includes all of the children of EPAK: Tracy's, offshoots of Tracy's, offshoots of EPAL. Kenpo includes all of the children of William Chow: Kara-Ho, CHA-3, Kajukenbo, Shaolin Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, and too many more to list.

Only EPAK and its descendants use the principals, vocabulary, forms and techniques of EPAK. Others such as Tracy's may be very similar. Most are quite disimilar. It was a real eye opener to attend a seminar taught by Grand Master Ralph Castro several years ago. His system is awesome, it is Kenpo, but it is totally different from EPAK in terms of content, vocabulary, and in many of the principals.

I think that Twinkletoes may have had a hidden agenda here (and not a bad one) by asking how we can change Kenpo. But I'd like to go back to the thread topic and ask everyone to answer "what is Kenpo" -- while keeping in mind that Kenpo is more than just EPAK.

2) I think we aught to be ashamed of ourselves attacking Twinkletoes seniority just because he is 23. So he is not as old and fat as some of the Kenpo masters. He has been doing this since he was a kid so much of his understanding and movement will be more native than many of ours. Also, he is smart enough to seek more, explore more, and add more.

It is a great fallacy within Kenpo and many traditional martial arts to equate age with mastery. Sure, you know more when you do something for 30 years than when you do it for 15. But, how much more really? If you are doing the same material you learned in the first 10 years, are you spending the next 20 years learning 20 years more material or are you just repeating the first 10 years over and over again? I am not suggesting that most of us who are continuing Kenpo for 20 or 30 years are not learning and growing. But I would suggest that someone who has accomplished a Black Belt in Kenpo and has exposed himself to several other arts is not just repeating his first few years of training but is truly on a path to supplement and continue learning.

3) This talk about peeling back the onion is silly. Sure, you can peel all the layers off the onion. What do you get when you are done? Onion slices. It still looks like onion, smells like onion, tastes like Onion. How many slices do you have to peel before determining that you know as much as you need to know about an onion and how it tastes? At some point, you don't learn any more by peeling more layers off the onion. At some point you need to go and find some other seasonings to throw in the soup. Even onion soup has more than just onion to flavor it.

I could go on and on...but I'll save it for later posts.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Billy Lear
I disagree with you about the techniques. I feel that they are all useful.
[/B][/QUOTE
Oh, that is rich. So all the techniques Ed parker through out of his system are usefull? was he just making some bad descisions? What does the word usefull mean to you?
The word kenpo means martial art. It could all be called kenpo just like we all call it karate to the average Joe. I think your trying to hold that word to too limited of a standard. Sure not every thing is ED Parkers Kenpo, however, it is all Kenpo.
Here's a question for you...
All of the Sepulvida people block at a different angle than the way I have been taught and the way I teach. Who is right? or are we both doing kenpo in a different way?

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death

Originally posted by Billy Lear
I disagree with you about the techniques. I feel that they are all useful.

[/QUOTE
Oh, that is rich. So all the techniques Ed parker through out of his system are usefull? was he just making some bad descisions? What does the word usefull mean to you?
The word kenpo means martial art. It could all be called kenpo just like we all call it karate to the average Joe. I think your trying to hold that word to too limited of a standard. Sure not every thing is ED Parkers Kenpo, however, it is all Kenpo.
Here's a question for you...
All of the Sepulvida people block at a different angle than the way I have been taught and the way I teach. Who is right? or are we both doing kenpo in a different way? [/B]

First, the word "Kenpo" means fist law... not martial art.

Second, Ed Parker removed some techniques from his system, but I wouldn't say it was because they were usless. I would say he added and deleted things based on what he wanted in his system, period.

Third, John Sepulveda can teach anything he wants for whatever reason he wants... All I'm saying that if there is a significant enough change to the system, then it is no longer Kenpo, regardless of "WHO" teaches it.

Peace,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different. That is the most ridiculous statement I have read ... being I just returned from a camp where over 30 of his Black Belts were there. I am former UKS / IKKA and the blocks looked and felt the same to me. Geez guys, gimme a break. If you hold up an example, make sure it is either correct or that one of his Black Belts is not a regular MartialTalk poster and reading it.

It looks a little silly, and I feel stupid correcting you on a public forum. The last time I did it I received a private apology, but none on the forum in which the criticism was made. So I tend to let people say and believe what they want. But the Prof does not read this forum and can't correct this perception himself ... ergo my post.

Don't assume what he shows in a seminar or elsewhere is the limit of what he does or teaches.

Left over Right

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different. That is the most ridiculous statement I have read ... being I just returned from a camp where over 30 of his Black Belts were there. I am former UKS / IKKA and the blocks looked and felt the same to me. Geez guys, gimme a break. If you hold up an example, make sure it is either correct or that one of his Black Belts is not a regular MartialTalk poster and reading it.

It looks a little silly, and I feel stupid correcting you on a public forum. The last time I did it I received a private apology, but none on the forum in which the criticism was made. So I tend to let people say and believe what they want. But the Prof does not read this forum and can't correct this perception himself ... ergo my post.

Don't assume what he shows in a seminar or elsewhere is the limit of what he does or teaches.

Left over Right

Mr. Billings,

I think he was giving a hypothetical example... I don't think John Sepulveda is doing things differently... I was only responding to his (Possibly hypothetical) example.

Your friend always,
Billy Lear, UKS

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different. That is the most ridiculous statement I have read

Whoa!, come down off the Empire State building there King Kong. I said Those guys have an inward blocking method that is different from my own. That is not a rediculous statement or an opinion; it is a fact. Since you havent seen the comparrison you are defending somthing you are not fully comprehending. My question is that should one be termed Kenpo and the other be called somthing else?

Billy Lear,
fist law sounds like a martial art to me. If it isnt, what about fist law that is destinctive from the word martial art?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Why don't you just look up the blocks in Mr. Parker's, "Infinite Insights," or Larry Tatum's reissued, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon?" Then you'll know, and you won't have to rely on generalizations....

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
....change or remove all the katas?

Yep.

....change or remove some of the techniques?

Yep.

....change or remove all the techniques?

Yep.

....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?

You could change the way you taught or thought about them but the "basics" reflect the principles upon which kenpo is based.

....not make reference to the same principles?

Well I supose if you could somehow teach the principles without making refernce to them then I supose. But why would you want to do that? Logical application of the principles of motion and self defense IS kenpo.

....call it something else?

Sure. I think I'll call it Elfan-Ryu Ninja Karate.

If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?

No, kenpo isn't based on techniques OR drills.

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
This is an OPINION question:

What is it that makes kenpo what it is?

What can be changed without losing "the kenpo" in it?

Could you.......

....change or remove all the katas?

They weren't really there at the beginning any way, why not.

....change or remove all the techniques?

There is only a little bit of overlap between your kenpo and my kempo as far as specific techniques go

....change or remove some of the techniques?

That's happened countless times already, although not nearly often enough in the 'remove' department. In my lineage, everybody had to put their 2 cents (and then some) in.

....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?

Now this starts to affect its kenpo-ness.

....not make reference to the same principles?

That depends. The principles exist, we all just seem to have different terms for them. If you start ditching the principles, however, it ceases to be kempo/kenpo.

....call it something else?

and would it still be Kenpo?

This is an actual question, not forum weirdness. I want to know what people think defines kenpo opposed to other systems.

If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?

If someone had a system in which the basic moves were done differently, would it still be kenpo?

If you changed the name but taught the same material the same way, that seems obviously to still be kenpo.......

Kata were not emphasized in the early versions (Mitose, Chow), 'Tricks' were. Hard training, strong fundamentals, tough people.

As the material has proliferated, kenpo has become infested with 'collectors'. I feel that a system with hundreds of techniques is suitable for someone with no imagination, creativity, or ambition to train in a chaotic environment similar to combat. Techniques should be examples of principles.

Matt

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Why don't you just look up the blocks in Mr. Parker's, "Infinite Insights," or Larry Tatum's reissued, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon?" Then you'll know, and you won't have to rely on generalizations....

I wasn't asking which one was right I am asking should one method be called kenpo and the other somthing else. I'm sure larry Tatum has all kinds of things to say on the subject but we don't discuss. The difference in angles is somthing I noticed at the Vegas Camp one year. These subtle differences that I noticed change the whole dynamic of the art in my opinion. I had a chance to ask Mr. Sepulvida himself but I didnt want to say "why do yall block so funny?" or somthing to that affect. I have the infinite Insights and it does not address blocking from a fighting stance and what your exact angle should be in relation to your opponent, or wheather or not you block on the upside or the downside of the circle. If it did there wouldn't be any confusion.