What makes an art Traditional?

[Rich Parsons]

This is not a Traditional veruss Modern or other discussion.

I am asking what defines a Traditional system or style?

Can it be put into words, or is it something that has ot be felt and seen?

 

[geezer]

This is not a Traditional veruss Modern or other discussion.

I am asking what defines a Traditional system or style?

Can it be put into words, or is it something that has ot be felt and seen?

I always thought it was about history, lineage and doing things "the old way". I define "tradition" when I'm teaching my high school art classes as, "A long established and widely accepted way of doing things". Modern or innovative thinking inevitably breaks with tradition, since the objective is to find a new, different or "better" solution. Sometimes the new way may present a more efficient, effective solution, sometimes the old, time-tested way is more reliable. And, sometimes you can mix in a bit of both. Ultimately, like the old Romans said, "De gustabus non est disputandum". It's just a matter of personal taste. Like, do you ride a Harley, or a "rice-rocket"? Either way, you can sure feel and see the difference!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

A traditional martial art to me has the following:

Has customs,beliefs,and information handed down thru generations.

It is based on warfare or methodology of historical setting.

A traditional martial art is greatly influenced by the cultural background and etiquette of the time period it was founded upon.

There tends to be some sort of spiritual side to it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Any Martial Art that is handed down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, by word of mouth and by practice

Any Martial Art that has a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting and a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.

 

[JadeDragon3]

I think that to be considered traditional it has to have a lineage, customs, and has to have tested the test of times (meaning been around for a long time).

 

[kailat]

TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ART:

To my understandings a traditional art is a system with a deep history from a dynasty or time period that is taught to the masses that "WAS" (A WAY). A Trad art has a tendecy to have a curriculum as set forth by a governing body and passed down by a lineage... It has "forms" and bylaws that are followed that sets it apart from it's predecessors! It has a structure of rank and also has a uniformity to its practicioners. It gives a basic study guideline to an advance study guideline.
Also, much TRADT arts focus on sport, and tournament atmosphere as well as trying to for the lack of a better term uses the art for Health benifits, and in some instances monetary and glory of a title in a ring...

A NON-TRADITIONAL ART:

Non Trad arts in my opinion or as I have seen it is, based on the "now" and is modern and geared for a modern environment. It's teaching philosophy is based on merely self defense and does not focus on RANK, UNIFORMITY, a HIERARCHY, GOVERNING BODY.

It has a more excellerating focus on teaching methods that are geared for street defense, combat/warfare defense. NON TRAD arts are not focused on playing by a set group of rules or for play in the sporting ring to develope a name, trophy, title, or monetary gain...

this is just my assumption that I see trad vs. non trad is seen thru my eyes..

 

[stickarts]

To me it means doing something a certain way because thats how its always been done.

 

[still learning]

Hello, What would define UN-traditional martial arts?

This might help defining traditonal.

Our traditonal food is "rice"

We also like "kalua pig" (cook in underground ovens) cover with banana leaves and tea leaves.

Shaking hands as a greeting is traditional in the USA....slapping each other might not be traditional.

Aloha, "where aloha is spoken as a tradition.

 

[bostonbomber]

TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ART:
To my understandings a traditional art is a system with a deep history from a dynasty or time period that is taught to the masses that "WAS" (A WAY). A Trad art has a tendecy to have a curriculum as set forth by a governing body and passed down by a lineage... It has "forms" and bylaws that are followed that sets it apart from it's predecessors! It has a structure of rank and also has a uniformity to its practicioners. It gives a basic study guideline to an advance study guideline.
Also, much TRADT arts focus on sport, and tournament atmosphere as well as trying to for the lack of a better term uses the art for Health benifits, and in some instances monetary and glory of a title in a ring...

Unfortunately, many traditional Chinese martial arts don't fit your characterization: they were not taught to the masses, there were no fixed curriculum, no governing body, no systematic ranking, and had nothing to do with sport.

I don't things fit so easily into these two categories. Many so-called traditional arts have changed over the years because there purpose has changed (e.g., some TCMA schools I know of have add more wushu-style moves because they appeal to the audience more) and may so-called modern or non-traditional styles have "re-invented" concepts that have existed for many years in traditional arts.

 

[Guliufa]

BB - this has been my sentiment for a long time.

I don't even use the term "tradition" anymore.

I use "koryu" to describe what I do as it fits more.

Even I have modified my kata - incorporating things like centerline theory, which is something that was there before the "do" era.

So I am not keeping my teacher's "tradition"; I am reintegrating the concepts that were present in practice of technique.

I see many teachers talk about centerline theory but when they do kata, it doesn't reflect the use of said theory - so I made the adjustment to all the kata.

The term "traditional" is being misused today by many of the mma/ufc wannabes.

 

[bluekey88]

At what point does a modern or non-traditional art becaome a Traditional art?

 

[Guliufa]

At what point does a modern or non-traditional art becaome a Traditional art?

Good question - and it does apply! When you teach and your students do what you do, and their students do what you and their teacher did - they have kept the "tradition".

 

[bluekey88]

Does this happen after the 1st generation? the second? What happens when your students inevitably pu tthei rown stamp on what they learned from you? When is it tradition and when is it modern?

It seems to me that many of th eso-called traditional arts (TKD, Many styles of Karate, Aikido, etc.) are quite modern in their age (less than 80 years in a lot of cases) while alot of so-called non-traditional arts are quite ancient (Muay thai, wrestling, etc.) or derived from ancient sources (boxing, FMA, BJJ).

Peace,
Erik

 

[Rich Parsons]

At what point does a modern or non-traditional art becaome a Traditional art?

Someone saw my leading post and asked the follow up question.

Good question - and it does apply! When you teach and your students do what you do, and their students do what you and their teacher did - they have kept the "tradition".

Yes a good question.

Does this happen after the 1st generation? the second? What happens when your students inevitably pu tthei rown stamp on what they learned from you? When is it tradition and when is it modern?

It seems to me that many of th eso-called traditional arts (TKD, Many styles of Karate, Aikido, etc.) are quite modern in their age (less than 80 years in a lot of cases) while alot of so-called non-traditional arts are quite ancient (Muay thai, wrestling, etc.) or derived from ancient sources (boxing, FMA, BJJ).

Peace,
Erik

That would be my next question as well.

Is it still modern at the first generation of students?

Is it a generation number or number of years?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Someone saw my leading post and asked the follow up question.




Yes a good question.






That would be my next question as well.

Is it still modern at the first generation of students?

Is it a generation number or number of years?

Wow this thread is interesting. How do you define a traditional martial art? That is very, very interesting as some martial arts that have defined themselves as traditional I would call completely modern and others that are clearly more traditional are viewed as a modern martial art.

I know in what I do in IRT there is a blend of traditional and the modern and yet in the end the construct is definitely modern.

 

[bluekey88]

Finally, because I'm feeling peevish, is the traditional/modern distinction even useful?

Years ago when I was just getting into martial arts...I was introduced to the hard/soft concept...that proved usefulo to a degree, but not entirely accurate. I find that at advanced levels, so-called ahrd arts start to develop softer aspects while so-calleds soft arts start teaching harder aspects (atemi in Aikido for example).

Then I learned about the Norht/South kung fu distinction. I've now learned that distinction is pretty spurious at best (Iat least th elegends of how the styles developed was).

I'm starting to feel that the traditional/modern distinction isn't particulalry useful. Perhpas a distinction as to how the arts are taught/porgressed through. Regimented vs freeform. TKD, Aikido and other so-called traditional arts tend to have a regimented "rank" system, with certain aspects taught before others. Other arts such as Boxing, and the like are taught in more of a freeform style where the basics are put out quickly and the bulk of th rest fo one's training and growth comes from application and discovery. Some arts. like BJJ, seem to tread a middle line.

I dunno. Martial arts are a fairly nebulous concept and mayeb trying to come up with clear distinctions is a waste of time?

Peace,
Erik

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tend to stick with the categorization of traditional. However if you are talking internal external in the long run they all end up the same if trained properly.

Police/Military Sanda is not a traditional CMA but it sure feels like it is at times and it is not internal but it sure feels like it at times. However it has no qi training at all like just about all traditional CMA styles do but sanda's origins are also fairly recent by comparison. Taiji is traditional however something like Combat Taiji, IMO, is not. Now Shuāijiāo is a a bit harder, it is the oldest CMA around today but it is for the most part sports based these days but I would still call it traditional. Yiquan is another one that might be hard to categorize and to be honest I am not sure if it is traditional or not. Its base, like that of Sanda, is traditional but I believe Wang Xiang Zhai called it modern and wanted to break form tradition.

The majority of CMA styles, to me, are traditional and I base that on the history of those styles and the training of those styles. Basically there is a tradition that comes with them that is in many cases a rather long one and, IMO, without an understanding of that tradition and the culture form which it cones you cannot ever truly understand or apply the style. Where as Sanda it is not that big of a deal. But then this is where Yiquan gets confusing to me as far as a category goes, I do feel it is necessary for Yiquan (dachengquan) but yes Wang Xiang Zhai called it modern and a break form tradition.

Is this categorization really all that important or does it make one better than the other? IMO No

But I do believe the history of any style whether that modern, traditional or non-traditional is important and the type of training, emphasis on specific types of training and the history of any style is what, IMO, makes it traditional or not.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Finally, because I'm feeling peevish, is the traditional/modern distinction even useful?

Years ago when I was just getting into martial arts...I was introduced to the hard/soft concept...that proved usefulo to a degree, but not entirely accurate. I find that at advanced levels, so-called ahrd arts start to develop softer aspects while so-calleds soft arts start teaching harder aspects (atemi in Aikido for example).

Then I learned about the Norht/South kung fu distinction. I've now learned that distinction is pretty spurious at best (Iat least th elegends of how the styles developed was).

I'm starting to feel that the traditional/modern distinction isn't particulalry useful. Perhpas a distinction as to how the arts are taught/porgressed through. Regimented vs freeform. TKD, Aikido and other so-called traditional arts tend to have a regimented "rank" system, with certain aspects taught before others. Other arts such as Boxing, and the like are taught in more of a freeform style where the basics are put out quickly and the bulk of th rest fo one's training and growth comes from application and discovery. Some arts. like BJJ, seem to tread a middle line.

I dunno. Martial arts are a fairly nebulous concept and mayeb trying to come up with clear distinctions is a waste of time?

Peace,
Erik

Distinctions happen even if we do not want them.

People try to describe what they do or see with the words they have.

I never thought I was a traditionalist. I am the first Generation student of a system that is called "Modern Arnis". I try to keep what I was taught and teach what I was taught as close to the way it was taught to me. Of course I use my own words and examples, but the techniques are tried to be taught the same. I was referred to as a traditionalist for this attitude. I still play and resolve new issues, with research and open mind. This to me is modern or open minded.

So, I was asking about Traditional defition for the arts to try to understand and learn how others think and describe the term traditional.

To me even a discussion on something I may not use still gives me something to learn.

 

[HM2PAC]

I'll be testing for my VERY TRADITIONAL Camo Belt in a couple of months.

 

[bluekey88]

ATA TKD, eh?