What kicks besides a sidekick...

[TSDTexan]

Well... I am curious as to why Choki Motobu would teach there is a front snap kick there, (at the Kosa-dachi before the next movement) to his students.

If.
1. Chosei is not lying.
2. And Nihon Denryu Heiho Motobu Kenpo still is teaching this way.

Then you have one tradition that is claiming a variation of kata different from the others.

Of what tactical or strategic value is there in that kick at that time. I suspect the kick is an entry, and if ignored, potentially a fight ender. Choki had no qualms about groin strikes.

 

[TimoS]

Well... I am curious as to why Choki Motobu would teach there is a front snap kick there, (at the Kosa-dachi before the next movement) to his students.

Where does he say that there is a front snap kick?

 

[Buka]

Strange too, since I always think of Naihanchi as being just about the oomphiest series I practice or have seen...

Not my style, per se, but I saw this a while back didn't think it was too bad, in terms of oomph. Passion I can't speak to, but oomph, perhaps...

That's oomph. Nice, crisp oomph, too.

 

[TSDTexan]

Where does he say that there is a front snap kick?

Choki taught this to Chosei.
Chosei teaches this in a Tsunami video about Choki Motobu.

 

[Buka]

Passion has to be part of an instruction manual?
Since when?

I am curious about when that tradition got started.
Because kata wasnt, for a very long time a performance art... it simply was a repository of knowledge.
When karate was an outlawed thing and folks has to do it with very dim lanterns... in the dark of night.... just a single student and teacher it certainly was not a performance art.

I believe there should be passion (or oomph) in all Martial training, in all martial movements of a striking art, yes.

I'm not sure when that tradition got started, but my guess would be from the very onset of Martial Arts.

I do not consider any Martial Art a performance art. I consider every Martial Art a fighting Art (as well as a whole lot more than that, obviously) But, to me, in striking arts you will use your strikes exactly the way you train them each and every time. If there is no passion in your movements on a consistent basis - should the oomph ever hit the fan one might find oneself on the wrong side of said fan.

 

[TSDTexan]

Ok.

So here is a strategic value to the kick.
1. Entry
2. Valid attack threat (kick to the groin)
3. Which is also a feint, designed to draw a block from the target.
4. Hitake the blocking hand while exacuting a knife hand shuto to the throat or temple, followed up immediately with an reinforced elbow strike.

So flowchart this.
Is target's groin open to a kick?
Yes. No.
-->kick it. / Resume kata at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.

Does target block kick?-----------Yes/No both resume at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok.

So here is a strategic value to the kick.
1. Entry
2. Valid attack threat (kick to the groin)
3. Which is also a feint, designed to draw a block from the target.
4. Hitake the blocking hand while exacuting a knife hand shuto to the throat or temple, followed up immediately with an reinforced elbow strike.

So flowchart this.
Is target's groin open to a kick?
Yes. No.
-->kick it. / Resume kata at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.

Does target block kick?-----------Yes/No both resume at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.

I see where my confusion is, in relation to your original question. I don't look at my kung fu forms in that manner. My forms are like a dictionary and I can take any of those "words" and make different sentences based on the context of what is going on around me. For me forms are techniques that are done in the context of learning so there's no flow chart based on what if something happens. When I think of deploying a technique then I think of the "what if this happens" scenarios.

It sounds to me that question is more about deployment of the next possible attack from a specific stance, than a "hidden" technique within a kata. I would think the kata would remain the same unless you were adding or removing a technique from a kata.

 

[TSDTexan]

I see where my confusion is, in relation to your original question. I don't look at my kung fu forms in that manner. My forms are like a dictionary and I can take any of those "words" and make different sentences based on the context of what is going on around me. For me forms are techniques that are done in the context of learning so there's no flow chart based on what if something happens. When I think of deploying a technique then I think of the "what if this happens" scenarios.

It sounds to me that question is more about deployment of the next possible attack from a specific stance, than a "hidden" technique within a kata. I would think the kata would remain the same unless you were adding or removing a technique from a kata.

Well actually I agree with you here.
The whole kata can be a single fight or a series of samples.
By sample I mean like a dj with a mixing board.
A series of snipped sounds assigned to buttons and the dj can layer them down across a track.

A snippet of technique can be used, and then from another spot of the kata another sample, all based on the opportunities presented in the fight.

Nothing prevents both views from being utilities

 

[elder999]

Choki taught this to Chosei.
Chosei teaches this in a Tsunami video about Choki Motobu.

I'm not buying that-if it's The Karate of Choki Motobu with Chosei Motobu and Takegi Inaba you're talking about, I'll have to give it a look see. In conversations with him, though, Chosei Motobu was pretty insistent that his father emphasized kicks after punches-there is no punch preceding the cross-step to lead to a kick. He used kicks, but sparingly-as a finishing or follow up technique, meant to knock someone off their feet. Motobu ryu was/is a close-range style, with a great deal of grappling, and powerful punches-even "blocks" are really just attacks on the opponents limbs to prepare a follow up punch...

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm not buying that-if it's The Karate of Choki Motobu with Chosei Motobu and Takegi Inaba you're talking about, I'll have to give it a look see. In conversations with him, though, Chosei Motobu was pretty insistent that his father emphasized kicks after punches-there is no punch preceding the cross-step to lead to a kick. He used kicks, but sparingly-as a finishing or follow up technique, meant to knock someone off their feet. Motobu ryu was/is a close-range style, with a great deal of grappling, and powerful punches-even "blocks" are really just attacks on the opponents limbs to prepare a follow up punch...

Here is the DVD

The section where he deals with the kick while in kosa dachi starts at 20 minutes 52 seconds, right after he deals with vertical blocks.

 

[TSDTexan]

Here are some screenshots where he says the kosadachi is a hidden front snap kick technique. Point blank says to keep the kick in mind when you practice the kata.

Here is that sequence.

 

[elder999]

Here is the DVD
View attachment 19598

Yeah. That's it.

I get home first week of Nov.....if I get time, I'll give it another look...

....while it's hard to believe that anyone's Japanese is worse than mine, in preparation for the time when I eventually say, "Nah, that's not what he said,-given that it might not be until early next year, you should consider some things that I've said already, because there are ways you could kick from there-or punch, or throw-and it's likely that he was talking about something derived not within the kata. All of Motobu ryu is the three naihanchi and some ippon kumite. Originally, Motobu ryu-motobu udundi- didn't have naihanchi-Choki sensei added it. It did have a breathing exercise resembling sanchin kata, but that's not relevant to our discussion here....in any case considering your question, consider this:

Motobu ryu fighting philosophy is "closest weapon strikes." the lead foot and hand kick or strike.

There are no "blocks." Blocks are strikes to set up a strike-often with that same lead hand.

Practice the form with a turn at each cross step

Where is the enemy?.

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[TSDTexan]

Yeah. That's it.

I get home first week of Nov.....if I get time, I'll give it another look...

....while it's hard to believe that anyone's Japanese is worse than mine, in preparation for the time when I eventually say, "Nah, that's not what he said,-given that it might not be until early next year, you should consider some things that I've said already, because there are ways you could kick from there-or punch, or throw-and it's likely that he was talking about something derived not within the kata. All of Motobu ryu is the three naihanchi and some ippon kumite. Originally, Motobu ryu-motobu udundi- didn't have naihanchi-Choki sensei added it. It did have a breathing exercise resembling sanchin kata, but that's not relevant to our discussion here....in any case considering your question, consider this:

Motobu ryu fighting philosophy is "closest weapon strikes." the lead foot and hand kick or strike.

There are no "blocks." Blocks are strikes to set up a strike-often with that same lead hand.

Practice the form with a turn at each cross step

Where is the enemy?.

It might be said that Choki did the single unabridged kata.
Or Nihanchi 1 + 2 + 3 as a single form.
He did also sometimes teach passai in the dojo.

 

[elder999]

It might be said that Choki did the single unabridged kata.
Or Nihanchi 1 + 2 + 3 as a single form.
He did also sometimes teach passai in the dojo.

Ya haven't once seen me reference "naihanchi 'shodan'", or "tekki nidan", so what's your point?

I mean, they say he also knew gojushiho, but it's like I said. Motobu ryu is naihanchi, and some combinations..

Anyway, you'd be better off paying attention to what I'm saying, than I'll ever be paying any attention to what your're saying-and I'm out of here until I get around to watching that DVD again.......

 

[TSDTexan]

Ya haven't once seen me reference "naihanchi 'shodan'", or "tekki nidan", so what's your point?

I mean, they say he also knew gojushiho, but it's like I said. Motobu ryu is naihanchi, and some combinations..

Anyway, you'd be better off paying attention to what I'm saying, than I'll ever be paying any attention to what your're saying-and I'm out of here until I get around to watching that DVD again.......

Point #1 but it's like I said. Motobu ryu is naihanchi, and some combinations..
What you said here.. is why Motobu Ryu is my favorite Karatedo. Very very simple, and very very effective.


Maybe this will help, Perhaps you can hear and understand Chosei better then I can.
I would have been really happy if they had just enabled a subtitles screen in the root menus, and let me read the kanji or katakana of what is being said.

The section on the kick begins at the six second mark. (ish)

 

[TimoS]

I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55

). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55

). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.

My brain just exploded. That form has some familiar movements that reminds me of my small tiger form in kung fu. I'll have to see if I have time to chop up the video and add the comparisons that are in small tiger.

He is also the only one I've seen (from videos posted in MT) that appears to knows about the technique used when transitioning between stances. In terms of stance transitioning there is a hidden technique, but most people do the transition without the technique. You guys probably know it already but he did 6 trips and 1 sweep.

 

[TSDTexan]

I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55

). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.

Well.. I sense some genuine doubt. I have fired off a question to a contact in Chosei's org. I suspect he did learn it from his dad. Why else would it be in a video specifical made about his father's karate?

Going off topic on a very specific subject matter documentary seems unjappanese. They tend to be brief and direct on the dvds that are historical. To include technique or application from outside the ryu is pretty unfathomable.

I hope to have answer In my email in the next few days.

 

[TimoS]

Why else would it be in a video specifical made about his father's karate?

Why do so many people, Okinawans included, have questionable lineages? Are we to accept their word for it?