What it's like to live in America where everybody can buy guns?

[Dirty Dog]

how do you know this? As I said, I would welcome some reliable numbers. If I get some time, I'll look for some myself to support your most recent assertion, that people who regularly carry a gun are mostly well trained. Can you help me by pointing me to sime stats on how many people carry guns as part of their personal self defense, and then tell me what we'll trained means? because, even with the clarification, this still seems like self serving conjecture.

Steve, I'm not sure why you're going on and on here, honestly.
I told you. The sample group is "people I know who carry regularly", and I know because I talk to them, and train with some of them.
You don't like my sample group? That's fine. It ain't going to change anything. The fact remains that of the people I personal know who carry regularly, the clear majority train on a regular basis.
You're basically insisting that the only possible valid opinion can be formed after making a detailed survey of every gun owner in the US. And that's a ridiculous expectation, but hey, feel free to fund such a study (which will be invalidated, under your expectations, because you'll never get info from every gun owner).
Have a nice day.

 

[Steve]

While I agree with your assertion, I fail to see the point that you're trying to make. He made an unsupportable statement, you refuted it. To continue to belabor the point is totally irrelevant to just about any sort of discussion in my opinion.

in a thread on what it's like to live in America on this subject, it's relevant because this is typical. The rhetoric is largely grounded in nothing, on both sides, and is self serving. DD typifies this. He started with a blanket statement, and had backed off considerably since. But he still thinks "people I know" is a random sample and that his impression is sufficient o form a defensible opinion.

look, were I to say something like this about BJJ and TKD, I would be justifiably taken to task... Something like, most people who train BJJ are mote capable fighters than those who train TKD. even if I backed off and said... "hey. I Meant of those I know who train in one or the other."

I appreciate the point and will not belabor the point further.

 

[Steve]

Steve, I'm not sure why you're going on and on here, honestly.
I told you. The sample group is "people I know who carry regularly", and I know because I talk to them, and train with some of them.
You don't like my sample group? That's fine. It ain't going to change anything. The fact remains that of the people I personal know who carry regularly, the clear majority train on a regular basis.
You're basically insisting that the only possible valid opinion can be formed after making a detailed survey of every gun owner in the US. And that's a ridiculous expectation, but hey, feel free to fund such a study (which will be invalidated, under your expectations, because you'll never get info from every gun owner).
Have a nice day.

You're getting snarky, DD.

I'm proposing that a valid opinion is one that is supported by more than conjecture. Never suggested that it be a result of a detailed survey of every gun owner in the US. Hyperbolizing my point is kind of petty and a little beneath you. Don't you think?

TKD sucks, because I know some guys who do TKD and they suck. The form of that assertion is essentially the same as your position on this subject. Is my opinion supportable? I'd argue that it's not. And I've seen you argue that it's not in other threads, as well.

And relevant to this thread, this, more than anything else, is the problem with this topic in America now. We can't discuss it in a meaningful way because the gathering of information on the subject is actively discouraged so that unsupported opinions based upon imagination and intuition can be thrown around by all sides of the discussion.

 

[jondoe297]

On the one hand I think that being allowed to buy guns is good. If I lived in America I'd also buy lots and lots of guns and
rifles. This must be really fun to shoot with them and just hold them in your hand and clean them carefully.

On the other hand though it's also really scary imo. I mean do you even feel safe outside in public places knowing that
somebody could shoot at you at ANY time? I think I'd become paranoid and only walk around in public with a bullet proof
vest and of course also have at least 1 gun with me, better 2 guns.
But what do you do in the summer? You cant wear a gun holster under your shirt or a bullet proof vest.

Do you think about this when you go outside or do you suppress these thoughts that a terrorist or crazy person could stop
opening fire at any second?

i'd rather have it that only i am allowed to have guns but nobody else. this would make me feel safe and i'd not have to worry
about being shot at.

In my experience, it has been a common misconception with Europeans that firearms are available to anyone and everyone in the United States. I've heard it said that they are available for sale in every corner store here. While they are certainly more readily accessible in the USA than in most European nations, the contention that they are available to anyone and everyone is simply not true. In the United States, firearms are regulated at both the federal and state level, with federal law superseding any contradictory state law. The Federal Government has established a class of "prohibited persons" who are denied their right to possess firearms, based upon certain criminal convictions, citizenship status, military discharge status, drug usage, and mental health status. Some states further restrict firearms access, in addition to the federal restrictions.
The carrying of firearms varies greatly, depending on which state you are in. Some states allow anyone who is not a prohibited person to carry a firearm concealed (or openly) without any license or permit. Some states make it nearly impossible to carry a firearm.
I would contend that your remark about possibly "becoming paranoid" is very accurate. It is indeed paranoia. When you are raised around something, you tend to become accustomed to it, and not think about it. I can understand how someone who comes from a place where firearms are not common, would find the thought unsettling. However, a significant number of Americans are raised around firearms, and the thought of firearms being present around them is not something they think about on a regular basis.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say Europeans find guns unsettling because as with your comment about guns not being quite as common as many think, guns are far more common in Europe than many think! We are both more comfortable with them than you think plus we don't really give a monkey's cuss about them.
The problem is that it's far more of a political issue in the US than probably anywhere else in the world and this leads to much rhetoric from both sides of the argument. This clouds the reality a lot. We get all the stories of children killing adults by accident, all the school massacres and mass killings showing how dangerous guns are from one side and from the other all the times that having a gun has stopped crimes and saved lives. The truth is in the middle somewhere, there's not nearly as much of anything that these two sides say. In the middle are the normal people who carry guns without making a fuss and those who don't carry guns and also don't make a fuss.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would contend that your remark about possibly "becoming paranoid" is very accurate. It is indeed paranoia. When you are raised around something, you tend to become accustomed to it, and not think about it. I can understand how someone who comes from a place where firearms are not common, would find the thought unsettling. However, a significant number of Americans are raised around firearms, and the thought of firearms being present around them is not something they think about on a regular basis.

I was raised around guns, hunted with my dad, went to the local abandoned quarry to do some target practice, enjoyed it all, and I am a gun owner now. I am very comfortable around guns.

You may have a point in the above comments. But it goes both ways. In my opinion there is a lot of fear and paranoia in the gun owning population here in the US. Not everyone, certainly. But there is a very vocal subset of the population that obsesses over access and ownership and carrying rights, and actively build large collections of militarized and "tactical" weaponry as opposed to those items that are appropriate for hunting purposes, and I've seen it in discussions in places like the forums of martialtalk and the sister site kenpotalk that tell me these people are fearful and paranoid both about their perception of the governments interference with their rights and in their perception of danger lurking around every corner, against which they need to be armed, always and everywhere. I've seen forum members make comments such as (I paraphrase here) "I am not afraid of anyone because I am armed." In my assessment, such a comment clearly indicates fear of the world around them, possibly to the point of paranoia, tho I readily admit I am not qualified to diagnose anyone as clinically paranoid.

That is my observation.

 

[jondoe297]

I was raised around guns, hunted with my dad, went to the local abandoned quarry to do some target practice, enjoyed it all, and I am a gun owner now. I am very comfortable around guns.

You may have a point in the above comments. But it goes both ways. In my opinion there is a lot of fear and paranoia in the gun owning population here in the US. Not everyone, certainly. But there is a very vocal subset of the population that obsesses over access and ownership and carrying rights, and actively build large collections of militarized and "tactical" weaponry as opposed to those items that are appropriate for hunting purposes, and I've seen it in discussions in places like the forums of martialtalk and the sister site kenpotalk that tell me these people are fearful and paranoid both about their perception of the governments interference with their rights and in their perception of danger lurking around every corner, against which they need to be armed, always and everywhere. I've seen forum members make comments such as (I paraphrase here) "I am not afraid of anyone because I am armed." In my assessment, such a comment clearly indicates fear of the world around them, possibly to the point of paranoia, tho I readily admit I am not qualified to diagnose anyone as clinically paranoid.

That is my observation.

You make valid points, particularly with the inherent fear-mongering that tends to be present in the "gun world". However, with regard to buying, as you word it "militarized" weaponry, vice hunting, there are many people who have little to no interest in hunting. Firearms ownership and the practice of hunting are not mutually exclusive. Hunting is merely one facet of firearm ownership, and one does not need to be a hunter to validate their interest in firearms.

 

[jondoe297]

The problem is that it's far more of a political issue in the US than probably anywhere else in the world and this leads to much rhetoric from both sides of the argument.

No truer words have ever spoken, that I've seen.

 

[Flying Crane]

You make valid points, particularly with the inherent fear-mongering that tends to be present in the "gun world". However, with regard to buying, as you word it "militarized" weaponry, vice hunting, there are many people who have little to no interest in hunting. Firearms ownership and the practice of hunting are not mutually exclusive. Hunting is merely one facet of firearm ownership, and one does not need to be a hunter to validate their interest in firearms.

That is also a valid point. However it speaks to the point I was making about why some people may be buying guns. Militarized weaponry in large quantity, coupled with large (Large!) stockpiles of ammunition suggests, at least to me, that people are buying because they are afraid of the people around them. I sometimes wonder if that fear extends to the next door neighbor with the three children under age 9.

Owning these weapons isn't automatically a bad thing, I do understand that. But sometimes it does make a fellow go "hmmm...."

In my opinion it can become an unhealthy obsession and it seems to me that it can be driven by fear and paranoia. And again I readily admit that this does not describe everyone, but at the same time is a very real portion of the gun owning population.

 

[jondoe297]

That is also a valid point. However it speaks to the point I was making about why some people may be buying guns. Militarized weaponry in large quantity, coupled with large (Large!) stockpiles of ammunition suggests, at least to me, that people are buying because they are afraid of the people around them. I sometimes wonder if that fear extends to the next door neighbor with the three children under age 9.

Owning these weapons isn't automatically a bad thing, I do understand that. But sometimes it does make a fellow go "hmmm...."

In my opinion it can become an unhealthy obsession and it seems to me that it can be driven by fear and paranoia. And again I readily admit that this does not describe everyone, but at the same time is a very real portion of the gun owning population.

Agreed on all points.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unfortunately a lot of politics prey on people's fears. one side says that the government is going to take away guns and have been dating that for 35 years and the government still hasn't made any effort or plan to take away guns. 35 years of fear mongering about a threat that doesn't exist.

Because of this people are only going to get the extreme perceptions from both side. The sad thing is that it takes away any realistic solutions that address issues that actually surrounds gun ownership. It also gives an unrealistic view of what is really happening with America's gun culture. Causing people to fight problems that really don't exist.

 

[Tgace]

, but at the same time is a very real portion of the gun owning population.

Based on what research or study?

While those types are out there I wouldn't consider them statistically significant or even a "problem".

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Crane]

Based on what research or study?

While those types are out there I wouldn't consider them statistically significant or even a "problem".

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

I'm not claiming any research or statistical significance. Like DD's examples, this is simply my own experience.

My real point being, as a jondoe297 pointed out that there can be fear and paranoia about guns amongst those who are not familiar with them, likewise there is plenty of fear and paranoia among the gun owning population.

 

[SenseiHitman]

If we were not allowed to own firearms in the United States, then our ruling class would use the police to bully use around rather than bullying around the rest of the world to get what it wants. In the United States, the police are very afraid to just kick your door in and take you away for questioning. Not so in the rest of the world. Thanks to the bill of rights, in the United States the police have to pretend we have civil liberties that protect us and our property from them. Not so in other countries. Firearm laws do not stop terrorism or kooks. look what happened in France not too long ago. there was no one to shoot back until the French police got the courage to show up. In the United states when a kook wants to go on a shooting spree they make sure to go to a location where firearms are not permitted so they can get some kills in. For example, guns are not allowed on schools campuses or in theaters or shopping malls or on army bases ( unless they are being used in an exercise) so these are popular targets. Just imagine what would happen if one of these kooks went to a bar that off work police offers frequented or a biker bar or a street owned by a street gang. They would get only a couple shots off before being blasted from every direction. These kooks know this so they hunt where the prey is easy. People who are willing to give up their civil liberties for safety are the victims of mind control promoted by the ruling class through the media.
On a related subject, the television programing in the United states is purposely filled with propaganda against citizens owning firearms. I find that the vast majority of Americans that agree with gun control had the idea suggested to them by the sh*t they see on television. People who watch television become the blind puppets of the Babylon system. Frank Zappa wrote a song called The Slime that spells it all out. If you don't get what I am saying go listen to it on YouTube.

 

[Flying Crane]

See what I mean?

 

[SenseiHitman]

I own firearms but I never carry them, my primary weapon is karma. I train with weapons so I can understand them in order to develop good strategies to defend against them. I know that people who carry guns for self defense are cowards hiding behind the weapon to be safe. The truth is the weapon is only an extension of the warrior. There is no safety for those who hide behind guns. Yes, we have a bunch of stupid red necks and the like in this country that give firearm owners a bad name every time they open their mouths. On the other hand, history teaches us about the dangers of being disarmed. The group called, Jews for the preservation of firearms ownership can teach you why only an armed public is a free public. Go look at their web site.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao all agree that gun control works.

 

[Flying Crane]

...sigh...

 

[PhotonGuy]

On the other hand though it's also really scary imo. I mean do you even feel safe outside in public places knowing that
somebody could shoot at you at ANY time? I think I'd become paranoid and only walk around in public with a bullet proof
vest and of course also have at least 1 gun with me, better 2 guns.
But what do you do in the summer? You cant wear a gun holster under your shirt or a bullet proof vest.

Do you think about this when you go outside or do you suppress these thoughts that a terrorist or crazy person could stop
opening fire at any second?

i'd rather have it that only i am allowed to have guns but nobody else. this would make me feel safe and i'd not have to worry
about being shot at.

In the USA you're more likely to die from a car crash than you are of ever being shot.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I own firearms but I never carry them, my primary weapon is karma.

Go ahead and rely on karma. I'll stick with something with a bit better chance of actually keeping me alive. Like the Glock 19 currently sitting behind my right hip.

I train with weapons so I can understand them in order to develop good strategies to defend against them.

This is a fairly ridiculous thing to say. I'm standing 10 feet away from you with the aforementioned Glock 19 aimed at you. What possible defense do you think you're going to be able to develop against that? You think karma is going to deflect the bullet, maybe?

I know that people who carry guns for self defense are cowards hiding behind the weapon to be safe.

There are rules against name calling and insulting people on this forum, you know.

There are a number of us on this forum who have and do face physical violence on a regular basis. Some of us carry guns. Two of those (that I know of, it could well be more) have been forced to cause serious injury or death to an assailant.
But you're going to brand us all as cowards.
I'm going to refrain from saying what I'd like to say, because it would violate the TOS here.

There is no safety for those who hide behind guns.

There's more safety behind a gun than there is behind karma.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I know that people who carry guns for self defense are cowards hiding behind the weapon to be safe.

Based on my personal experience carrying and working with people that carry every day, I would have to say that this is a ridiculous statement!