guns...the real martial art...

[MattofSilat]

I do not mean to offend anyone, which I undoubtebly will considering what this Forum Section is, but I do not think of Guns as a Martial Art at all.

I have no actual reasoning behind this, I just don't. Maybe it's because I do not consider them to require a lot of skill in many circumstances (Just my opinion). For example, to shoot somebody with a pistol at close range, you need to point the gun at them and press a button. Then you win. The previous post about Hand-to-Hand into Gun tactics, I consider to be a bit of a cheaper shot (Especially when not used against a violent attacker who is targeting you with intent to commit a crime) . It's the same as grappling on the ground in a petty bar fight, then whipping out a knife to shank them a few times.

I don't really know why I think this way. I suppose it's almost because guns could be considered 'overpowered' (Press a Button, opponent is on the ground) and because anybody can use them. This is not to say that it doesn't take skill to shoot with extreme accuracy or over long ranges, I just do not consider it a martial art.

EDIT: I think I now understand why. It's the same reason I do not consider Kajukenbo or MMA as Martial Arts. They have no Art to them, it is purely Martial, if that makes any sense at all. There's no spiritual side, no expression of anything apart from the will to hurt somebody for whatever reason. Any single Martial Art should have something like this in my opinion, and all Martial Arts (Not Martial Sports such as Boxing) seem to. Karate, Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu, Silat, Kendo, etc,etc. I don't really know where I'd classify Firearms, probably in the same category as Krav. Meaning, I have no idea where.

Just my take on it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Morishige Ryu Hojutsu

Seki Ryu Hojutsu

Yo Ryu Hojutsu

Morishige Ryu again… gotta have them performing embu in yoroi!

Fun, and very LOUD demonstrations from these guys… and real "gun" martial arts.

 

[Tgace]

The issue with modern firearms training paradigms is the way its conducted...and the way people imagine it...IMO.

Sure, you can lay down 1k to spend the weekend shooting with some top tier special forces gun guru and walk away with a certificate stating that you passed "tactical gunfighter level 1". But ultimately what does that mean? IMO a local NRA taught class backed up by constant and consistent PRACTICE is just as valid and a hell of a lot cheaper.

Too many people spend a lot of money hopping around to different "seminar style" training schools but don't put in the 2-3 days a week "on the mat"....to make a MA metaphor.

There is this trend in firearms training to show off your school certificates like you are displaying your status by driving an expensive sports car.

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[Tgace]

I do not mean to offend anyone, which I undoubtebly will considering what this Forum Section is, but I do not think of Guns as a Martial Art at all.

I have no actual reasoning behind this, I just don't. Maybe it's because I do not consider them to require a lot of skill in many circumstances (Just my opinion). For example, to shoot somebody with a pistol at close range, you need to point the gun at them and press a button. Then you win. The previous post about Hand-to-Hand into Gun tactics, I consider to be a bit of a cheaper shot (Especially when not used against a violent attacker who is targeting you with intent to commit a crime) . It's the same as grappling on the ground in a petty bar fight, then whipping out a knife to shank them a few times.

I don't really know why I think this way. I suppose it's almost because guns could be considered 'overpowered' (Press a Button, opponent is on the ground) and because anybody can use them. This is not to say that it doesn't take skill to shoot with extreme accuracy or over long ranges, I just do not consider it a martial art.

EDIT: I think I now understand why. It's the same reason I do not consider Kajukenbo or MMA as Martial Arts. They have no Art to them, it is purely Martial, if that makes any sense at all. There's no spiritual side, no expression of anything apart from the will to hurt somebody for whatever reason. Any single Martial Art should have something like this in my opinion, and all Martial Arts (Not Martial Sports such as Boxing) seem to. Karate, Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu, Silat, Kendo, etc,etc. I don't really know where I'd classify Firearms, probably in the same category as Krav. Meaning, I have no idea where.

Just my take on it.

http://tgace.com/2012/11/26/the-mystical-and-the-mundane/



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[Tgace]

The way I was taught, "Craft" is the technical skills that can be......well, taught. An d "art" is an expression of self.

When it comes to shooting, I'm a pretty fair "craftsman," and others are artists. I'm content with that-most people with firearms hardly even qualify as "craftsmen," and that-sadly-includes more than 50% of the cops I've shot with.....the "artists," though, have all been wondrous to behold.....even if their scores turned out lower than mine ,I recognized that I really wouldn't want to be against them in a gunfight....they'd be more relaxed, more.....present, and I'd likely just wind up dead.....but with higher scores! :lfao:

ANyway, that's where I've always drawn the line-has nothing to do with uniforms or other accoutrements....except for the SASS....cowboy gear (or 20's gear!) rules!

A buddy of mine once said that maybe modern western weaponcraft would be better served with a journeyman/craftsman/master craftsman paradigm vs an eastern martial arts model.

Interesting.

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[Chris Parker]

the mystical and the mundane | the things worth believing in

Hi, Tgace,

I've read your blog post about a dozen times now, and to be frank, I'm having trouble seeing your argument. I get your question, but not your argument against (or for) it… can you elaborate on it at all?

 

[Tgace]

Just throwing this in on this topic....

http://tgace.com/2011/10/26/how-dedicated-are-you/

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[Chris Parker]

Okay… and by that you mean? Are you saying that dedication and repetition is the defining aspect?

 

[Tgace]

The issue with modern firearms training paradigms is the way its conducted...and the way people imagine it...IMO.

Sure, you can lay down 1k to spend the weekend shooting with some top tier special forces gun guru and walk away with a certificate stating that you passed "tactical gunfighter level 1". But ultimately what does that mean? IMO a local NRA taught class backed up by constant and consistent PRACTICE is just as valid and a hell of a lot cheaper.

Too many people spend a lot of money hopping around to different "seminar style" training schools but don't put in the 2-3 days a week "on the mat"....to make a MA metaphor.

There is this trend in firearms training to show off your school certificates like you are displaying your status by driving an expensive sports car.

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This post reminded me of this:

http://tgace.com/2012/01/02/what-exactly-do-you-think-you-are-doing/

Some – certainly not all – civilian training centers draw students by telling them how after only a few days of training, they will become as good a shooter as “a SWAT cop or a Navy SEAL.” Yes, Front Sight, I’m looking at you. Even when this is not stated outright, it is implied – most often not by the instructors, but by the students. For some people who have never been in the military, and are seeking a little excitement, putting on all the gear and getting on line to practice shooting drills is a really fun way to spend a weekend. I certainly don’t wish to put down what they have chosen to do too much, for as I said above, anyone who wants to own an AR-15 should know how to use it. However, while there is a massive jump in skills and proficiency after the first few training courses, the 5th, 10th, or 15th course is of relatively little value.

The conversation with a few MIL types in the comments section of that blog post is kinda interesting too....

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[MattofSilat]

the mystical and the mundane | the things worth believing in



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You didn't answer my post. I'm not saying what you should or should not believe, and I'm not talking about martial skills. Your response suggests you that's what you thought I meant.

What do you think the 'Art' section of 'Martial Arts' means? Being able to shoot your Pistol quickly? I disagree. I think it is about Self Expression, and sometimes philosophy or religion. I never said that I think Firearms training is 'less' than Martial Arts, I simply said that there aren't the same thing.

That is my definition of Martial Arts (Well, I assume you would already know the definition for 'Martial' (Skill, etc)), which Firearms does not fit into. Therefore, it's not a Martial Art.

Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die. The times when it does take skill are normally in sports or at long ranges, which rarely happens outside of War.

I know that's how the world is, I just dislike that aspect.

 

[Tgace]

That is my definition of Martial Arts (Well, I assume you would already know the definition for 'Martial' (Skill, etc)), which Firearms does not fit into. Therefore, it's not a Martial Art.

Your post is full of inaccuracies but lets start with this one.

mar·tial adjective \ˈmär-shəl\

: of or relating to war or soldiers

Full Definition of MARTIAL

: of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

: relating to an army or to militarylife

: experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE

Martial arts are the skills and techniques of "war" focused into a methodological craft of systematic fighting.

A firearm is a tool no different from a sword or a knife when it comes to displaying skilled use vs unskilled or simply "proficient" use.

If you believe that skilled use of a firearm is simply pulling a trigger you need to show me some video of how easy it is for you to do what that shooter in that video did.

And firearms have triggers that fire them...not buttons.

 

[Chris Parker]

That's as may-be, Tgace, but it doesn't answer Matt's questions (or mine, for that matter).

How are you defining "martial art"? Is it just "skill with a weapon", or is there more to it than that? Can I call myself a martial artist just because I've gotten some skill in an area, or is there something required beyond, or in addition to that? Is it generic and general, or a more specific concept?

And what have your blog posts really had to do with what's been discussed? I find it hard to see the connection, other than tangental, to the conversation happening around them, hence my request for clarifications...

Oh, and which translation for Gorin no Sho were you using earlier again?

 

[Tgace]

Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die.

If a burglar raids a house with a kitchen knife and stabs the owner to death is that an "art"? What about knife use in Arnis/Kali/Etc? is that an art?

If someone clubs someone to death with a stick is that an art? How about staff training in Kung-Fu? Is THAT an art?

Some street thug shoots a mugging victim at close range with a rusty .22....

vs. this.

( i especially like the blindfolded last frame of reference shot)

I'd call that degree of skill, efficiency and mastership of ones weapons a display of "Art" as much as a display of something like this is.

 

[jks9199]

Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die. The times when it does take skill are normally in sports or at long ranges, which rarely happens outside of War.

I know that's how the world is, I just dislike that aspect.

Someone trying to kill you is seldom boring... and if you ever reach the point where it is, you may want to rethink your patterns of life choices. Doesn't matter if it's with a gun, a knife, a rock, or their bare hands.

Even then, marksmanship is a skill that takes a lot of training and practice. The seven fundamentals of marksmanship are stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press, breath, follow through. You might note that there's some correlation to "regular" martial arts training there. To develop good shooting skills, you have to practice. A lot. And then, to do combative shooting, you have to adapt those principles to a much more dynamic situation, adding things like drawing and presenting the weapon and practicing weapon retention. Again -- some overlap with "regular" martial arts training, no?

That said -- you have an interesting idea to define the art aspect of martial arts.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/17...hing-you-never-actually-do-9.html#post1567470

 

[jks9199]

Incidentally... Here's a decent article about the fundamentals. Matt, you might read it, and compare it with martial arts training. I think you just might find a lot of common themes, as well as an appreciation of how much more there is to shooting than simply pushing a button.

 

[Buka]

Matt - Shooting someone is not as easy or casual as you seem to think. The reason it may seem so with mass murderers, serial killers ect is because they're mentally scrambled. Taking life is not an easy line to cross.

As for guns being part of an Art, I guess it depends. I believe if an Art, or a particular dojo or instructor, teaches any form of handgun disarming to advanced students, those students need to take a firearm safety course from a certified instructor, then spend more than a little time on the range learning to shoot with certified instructors. Not just from a liability standpoint, but from a tactical one. Otherwise I think the disarm training does more harm than good.

So...if the above scenario is in place, I believe that "guns" are now a part of that particular dojo or organizations Art.

Matt, brother, a couple of things...most shootings are at close distances, not long range. And believe it or not, it takes great skill to do it properly in a legal sense - as opposed to a hit or a drive by. And, bro, it's a trigger. Thank God Roy Rogers didn't name his horse Button.

 

[Tgace]

Incidentally... Here's a decent article about the fundamentals. Matt, you might read it, and compare it with martial arts training. I think you just might find a lot of common themes, as well as an appreciation of how much more there is to shooting than simply pushing a button.

Exactly. And when you get to some of the advanced issues:

Fighting around vehicles like that incorporates everything from ballistics to positional shooting and effective use of cover. Just shooting through the car windshield is more than "point and press". Do you know what the deflection of the glass will do to your shot? Shooting with your weapon on the side...do you know what that means regarding accuracy?

Ever consider the variations involved in simply reloading a pistol?

Just like fighting at an "art level" is more than swinging ones fists and feet...so is shooting at an advanced level.

 

[Tgace]

And, bro, it's a trigger. Thank God Roy Rogers didn't name his horse Button.

Video gaming reference?

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[MattofSilat]

It appears that my viewpoint has been changed.

By the way, the reference to 'pressing a button' was designed to oversimplify it in order to back up my point, I know it's a trigger xD. Just making that clear.

That most recent video by Tgrace got the issue across more than anything else, I didn't realize (Or didn't acknowledge) the number of factors that come into it.