What is the point of testing after a certain level?

[HighKick]

So personally, I feel like including any new forms at that level is pointless. Like I've mentioned tons of times, you should have enough material at first dan that there's no need to add extra past that. Including new forms. If there purpose is to demonstrate them at a test, that feels like a lost cause for MA. I agree at this point improvement isn't a physical thing, but based on your own students. I'm of the opinion belts past a certain point (imo black belt, but I understand some TKD styles gives black belts to 7 year olds so not specifying here), are there just to indicate your importance in the organization, not your actual combat or teaching ability.

Outwardly, would agree. But it can still feel good to most old dogs to get on the floor and test.

 

[skribs]

To clarify, are you saying that in TKD froms are mainly for demonstration purposes, or that you think TKD is different because in other arts forms are only for demonstration purposes (and not TKD)?

Taekwondo tends more towards demonstrations.

It's not like there are new techniques in those forms. They're things you already know, put in a different order.

For the most part I'd agree. However, Sipjin has a lot of moves that I hadn't seen in any previous form. There are new moves. But is a form really the place to learn new moves at that point?

It's more interesting than doing the same things you've already demonstrated. At least a little.

But at the same time, everything else is the same. Unless you're at a school which has more of everything.

It's one of the things that frustrated me about the school I was at. Between 3rd and 4th dan, there were an additional 25 combinations, 40 self-defense, at least half a dozen forms. By 3rd dan, I don't feel memorizing more things is the best use of my time, especially not that many more. (The fact that it was also too much for my Master to keep straight was also frustrating).

Not if you understand that "test" is not really the right word for what's happening. But you seem to think the rank is based on physical ability, based on what you've written in this thread. I would say it is not.

That one aspect is physical ability, not the entire thing. When you compare a green belt test to a black belt test, you expect better knowledge and better ability from the black belt. When you compare a 30 year old to a 60 year old, you expect the older person to be wiser, but have less physical ability. (On average, anyway).

But what I meant by what you quoted before making this comment, is that it's difficult to test teaching ability in a formal belt test.

It's always been disappointing to me that you are unable or unwilling to see just how much. You don't get Dan rank in our system without being able to look at a random technique shown in forms and demonstrate how to use it.

My belief is that you are incorrect. That you've drank the Kool-Aid about how valuable the forms are, and you're lashing out at me because you don't want to admit to yourself that maybe they don't teach quite as much as you thought, or the lessons they provide aren't as good as you thought.

If you can prove me wrong, do so. Otherwise, these little jabs about how much better you are than me because you know the secrets behind the Taegeuks just make me think you're grasping at straws.

Provide examples to back up your claims. I will hold them to the same standard I've held them for several years. If you can't meet that standard, it's not my fault.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It's not like there are new techniques in those forms. They're things you already know, put in a different order.

The Chang Hon system has "new " "Additional techniques" for each form. Granted the variation from something previously learned may be slight. General Choi's encyclopedia specifically lists "Additional Techniques" for the form prior to the detailed instructions for the form which is in line for his idea that the fundamental movements for each form be learned before the form is taught.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Outwardly, would agree. But it can still feel good to most old dogs to get on the floor and test.

Also good for the young Dogs to see.

 

[HighKick]

But what I meant by what you quoted before making this comment, is that it's difficult to test teaching ability in a formal belt test.

This is a perfect example of why "test" is not the best name for what is happening during a high Dan test. I am guessing there is a limit to the exposure you have had in high Dan testing's, especially from anything other than one vein of TKD.
Without question, the 'test' has been taking place for years and the tester has proven their teaching ability many times over. But it is really cool and fun to get to watch a person display their teaching skills in a more formal setting. Seldom is it in a master/slave relationship where someone is barking commands to be followed. More often, it is the tester fully running the show, so to speak. They do not need to be told what to do. That is the whole point of the test/demonstration/presentation. Which also are not exactly good names because every is improvisation.

My belief is that you are incorrect. That you've drank the Kool-Aid about how valuable the forms are, and you're lashing out at me because you don't want to admit to yourself that maybe they don't teach quite as much as you thought, or the lessons they provide aren't as good as you thought.

In no way did it seem the poster was 'lashing out' at you. There had been a long thread going on about the topic, some of which seemed rather repeated and circular. Maybe this is what you re referring to, or maybe you two have history that I am not privy to but It sure felt like any 'lashing out' was coming from your side.
People and styles have different views on how forms are used. Yours seems to be a rather low opinion of forms from a very personal level. Where the rub can come in is it seems you may have not been exposed to schools and styles where forms are taught foundational and applicable. It is all in how they are taught and used. "Drank the Kool-Aid" seems rather harsh.
I suspect this is more of a generational argument than anything else which got way off topic. It is very difficult to answer such a general question when the answers are coming in from so many different viewpoints.

 

[skribs]

maybe you two have history that I am not privy to

A long, tired one. It's all publicly posted on this site, though.

 

[HighKick]

A long, tired one. It's all publicly posted on this site, though.

Understood. But you surely get that if you ask a question on a public forum, you are going to get answers from everyone. That doesn't make automatically make them bad or targeted does it?
This is not at all my business, but the thread has been very compelling.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I have been practicing TKD under the same organization nearly all of my life. Our curriculum has no new material after 3rd Dan, however, there are still formal physical tests through 7th dan. We only have two 8th dans under our KJN, and neither of them performed a test for that rank promotion.

I had no aspirations to test beyond 3rd Dan, but I was asked to prepare by my SBN. So I tested when asked. IMO, it's more of a path to ensure continued promotion within the organization. Our seniors are not immortal. I see it as them molding what they want as a legacy through promotion of rank. I have no expectations of attaining 8th Dan, but then again I never thought I'd see 5th Dan, let alone 7th Dan.

This is likely less of an issue if you are part of a massive governing body like the KKW.

In our organization, the distinctions between higher rank really boil down to responsibility. I have more responsibility because there are more individuals under me. I have more responsibility to mentor more black belts, instructors, and other branch school owners. I teach weekly classes that are open to the entire organization above the normal branch school classes. I help mentor and teach other teachers. Time in grade, ideally, allows someone to grow into that responsibility with wisdom and experience.

 

[HighKick]

I have been practicing TKD under the same organization nearly all of my life. Our curriculum has no new material after 3rd Dan, however, there are still formal physical tests through 7th dan. We only have two 8th dans under our KJN, and neither of them performed a test for that rank promotion.

I had no aspirations to test beyond 3rd Dan, but I was asked to prepare by my SBN. So I tested when asked. IMO, it's more of a path to ensure continued promotion within the organization. Our seniors are not immortal. I see it as them molding what they want as a legacy through promotion of rank. I have no expectations of attaining 8th Dan, but then again I never thought I'd see 5th Dan, let alone 7th Dan.

This is likely less of an issue if you are part of a massive governing body like the KKW.

In our organization, the distinctions between higher rank really boil down to responsibility. I have more responsibility because there are more individuals under me. I have more responsibility to mentor more black belts, instructors, and other branch school owners. I teach weekly classes that are open to the entire organization above the normal branch school classes. I help mentor and teach other teachers. Time in grade, ideally, allows someone to grow into that responsibility with wisdom and experience.

Sir, FWIW, your facebook link does not work.

 

[andyjeffries]

I tested for and passed my 8th Dan in Changmookwan Taekwondo this year. I had to do 4 poomsae, the new Kukkiwon high dan basics sequence (bleurgh!) and a round of sparring. Plus a written thesis. Nothing too crazy, but a test nonetheless.

For me, below 6th Dan is learning lots of new material, 6th Dan and above is more about refining your teaching methods and deepening your understanding of tiny details.

So if you aren't learning lots more material above 5th Dan, what's the point in getting higher Dan ranks - well for me, they're just milestones on a journey. I always feel that in the lower grades, it's more enforcing the student to go through the "preparation to test" cycle of improvement. When you get to high dans, you still need that occasional cycle, but it's also the time in between to think about some part of Taekwondo, and then write your thesis on it. That exercise in thinking, researching, testing and writing can have huge improvements in your martial arts understanding.

 

[Dirty Dog]

For the most part I'd agree. However, Sipjin has a lot of moves that I hadn't seen in any previous form. There are new moves. But is a form really the place to learn new moves at that point?

You are mistaken in assuming that forms are the only place to learn techniques. I would be shocked and amazed if anyone of a rank to perform Sipjin as a required form didn't already know those techniques.

 

[skribs]

You are mistaken in assuming that forms are the only place to learn techniques. I would be shocked and amazed if anyone of a rank to perform Sipjin as a required form didn't already know those techniques.

You are mistaking in assuming that was my assumption.

Even then, I've never seen anything close to the double palm thing in Sipjin.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Sir, FWIW, your facebook link does not work.

Thanks for the heads up, it has been updated.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

What is the point of testing full-stop?

Just want to see what you think about tests and being tested.

 

[skribs]

What is the point of testing full-stop?

Just want to see what you think about tests and being tested.

Two of the main motivations for improvement are tests and competition.

I do feel that for younger folks especially, the test is a good way to help them learn to overcome stressful situations.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Two of the main motivations for improvement are tests and competition.

I do feel that for younger folks especially, the test is a good way to help them learn to overcome stressful situations.

After passing my 1st dan test (I was 11), I did feel I could take on just about any task that was put in front of me; on the farm, in school, and in the dojang. Are there other ways of gaining that confidence? I am sure. However, that test is what solidified my martial career. Even at 11 years old, I recognized what the level of training and preparation for such an examination meant. Goal setting, perseverance, indomitable spirit, discipline, focus, and hours of training every week for a few years all culminated in a successful test.

The thesis presentation and defense was to a board of examiners whose native language was Korean, not English. It was by far the "scariest" part of my test.

It shaped how I address both obstacles and goals in my life.

 

[skribs]

Are there other ways of gaining that...

People get too hung up on this, I think. There are lots of ways to do stuff, and lots of ways that it works. And lots of ways it works better for different folks or different situations.

I look at it like this: does it work? Yes. That's all I need. I don't need to worry about the other ways it works, to the point that all I'm doing is talking about how bad their way is, or else trying to find the best way instead of actually working.

You can always redirect down the road.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What is the point of testing full-stop?

Just want to see what you think about tests and being tested.

I say this quite seriously...it's a significant part of the revenue stream.

It's easier to sell "$120 per month" then tack on say $40 of testing fees per month on average, than to try to sell "$160 per month".

And then there are the black belt testing fees....

 

[skribs]

I say this quite seriously...it's a significant part of the revenue stream.

It's easier to sell "$120 per month" then tack on say $40 of testing fees per month on average, than to try to sell "$160 per month".

And then there are the black belt testing fees....

I think more than half of the black belt testing fees at my school were for material items. The testing fee for 1st Dan was $600. I believe that around $200 of that was for the belt and uniform, and another bunch was for the Kukkiwon registration and certificate. We also use a lot of boards for our Dan tests, and those add up.

That's not to say that our Master didn't pocket a large chunk of change from each Dan test. But for the $600 test, I imagine only $200-250 went to him.

 

[andyjeffries]

What is the point of testing full-stop?

Just want to see what you think about tests and being tested.

So for me the points are cycling improvement and more pressurised determining if they can perform to the required standard.

There is usually a big difference in skill level between someone that trains in Taekwondo and doesn't test and those that test regularly (let's say "on schedule"). The reason is that there is a focus to those that test where they have to prepare for a given regular deadline. So a natural regular polishing cycle takes place.

Secondly it's easy for someone to perform a poomsae in class, but add in people watching them (parents, family members, friends) and all their classmates watching them, a panel of examiners watching them - and it causes a level of nerves and stress that isn't present in class. We want them to still be able to perform when they are feeling nerves/stress.

That's my reasoning.