What is the point of testing after a certain level?

[skribs]

I know we have a few folks on this forum that are a higher level than me (3rd Dan), and this question is aimed mainly at them. Although, if others my rank or below have 2nd-hand insights from folks higher ranking than us, I would appreciate that as well.

At some point in the career of a black belt, is testing anything other than a custom? I'm not saying I'm yet at that point. But I do feel I'm approaching it.

What I mean is this. Someone who is getting their black belt in Taekwondo has probably done 2-5 years worth of training, and the black belt test is the culmination of chapter 1 of their training. The next 6-10 years (minimum) are spent getting to 4th or 5th degree, which is generally considered to be Master rank. By this point, I believe the person is getting taught less and mentored more. They are learning less from curriculum and more from their own experimentation and research.

When someone is going for say 6th degree, what's the difference in test between 5th and 6th? One new form? As you get to higher dan ranks, the individual is most likely going to be less capable than they were before. I expect a 30-year-old testing for 4th Dan to be more capable than a 45-year-old testing for 7th.

What is it at the higher belts that makes the test itself important?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I know you're asking for tkd, but i think the kempo style i did is comparable organization-wise. My answer has always been: almost nothing. As I've mentioned on here before, i spent over a decade getting to black belt, and a large part of that was that, even at black belt, you have enough material to last you a life time. And all the useful stuff is taught pre-first dan; everything after that is the martial arts equivalent of busy work.

I say almost nothing, because there are a few uses. If you're in an organization and want to teach, there might be a belt requirement for that. And even if there isn't, people probably aren't going to the school opened by a first degree (though i think that becomes less relevant as the degree goes up. I don't think there'd be a huge difference in people attending a school ran by a 4th degree vs a 5th degree for instance). And of course some like to lord it over others.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tests are really just demonstrations you do as part of the promotion ceremony.

 

[skribs]

Tests are really just demonstrations you do as part of the promotion ceremony.

If an organization did not have formal testing as part of promotion after say 4th or 5th degree, what would be your opinion of that?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If an organization did not have formal testing as part of promotion after say 4th or 5th degree, what would be your opinion of that?

Does TKD have formal tests after that? I thought most martial arts awarded those ranks based on contribution to the art, rather than a formal test. I can't imagine what increase in skill they'd look for beyond 4th degree, that they wouldn't have wanted a 4th dan to have.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If an organization did not have formal testing as part of promotion after say 4th or 5th degree, what would be your opinion of that?

Why would I care? Groups can have as much or as little ceremony as they like and it matters not at all to me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Does TKD have formal tests after that? I thought most martial arts awarded those ranks based on contribution to the art, rather than a formal test. I can't imagine what increase in skill they'd look for beyond 4th degree, that they wouldn't have wanted a 4th dan to have.

Whether it's explicitly recognized or not, at some point all MA promotions are symbolic and awarded for 'service to the art'. In our MDK branch, everything from 7th Dan on is service.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Whether it's explicitly recognized or not, at some point all MA promotions are symbolic and awarded for 'service to the art'. In our MDK branch, everything from 7th Dan on is service.

So up to 7th dan they still have actual tests? With new material to learn? And an assumption of improving beyond the dan before?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So up to 7th dan they still have actual tests? With new material to learn? And an assumption of improving beyond the dan before?

Sure. But, again, the term "test" isn't really accurate. The "test" is just a demo. The "new material" is (for us) another form, but I think most systems have some token new material. And that "test" continues all the way through 9th Dan. Nobody "tests" unless we know they know the material, and by the time you reach mid- upper-Dan ranks, I think it's safe to say they're past the point where stage fright is a factor.

As for improving, there seems to be an assumption that improvement implies physical skills, e.g kicking harder. I think that's nonsense. Improvement means, for teaching ranks, improving as a teacher, i.e. the progress of that teachers students.

After all the bits I've had removed, feet that are completely numb from neuropathies caused by 12 years of chemo (and counting...) it would be ludicrous to imagine I still have the same physical abilities I had when I was, say, 45. But I'm a whole lot better teacher than I was then.

And, again, I think this is true for the vast majority (possibly all, but I don't care for absolutes) of arts, whether it is explicitly acknowledged or not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sure. But, again, the term "test" isn't really accurate. The "test" is just a demo. The "new material" is (for us) another form, but I think most systems have some token new material. And that "test" continues all the way through 9th Dan. Nobody "tests" unless we know they know the material, and by the time you reach mid- upper-Dan ranks, I think it's safe to say they're past the point where stage fright is a factor.

As for improving, there seems to be an assumption that improvement implies physical skills, e.g kicking harder. I think that's nonsense. Improvement means, for teaching ranks, improving as a teacher, i.e. the progress of that teachers students.

After all the bits I've had removed, feet that are completely numb from neuropathies caused by 12 years of chemo (and counting...) it would be ludicrous to imagine I still have the same physical abilities I had when I was, say, 45. But I'm a whole lot better teacher than I was then.

And, again, I think this is true for the vast majority (possibly all, but I don't care for absolutes) of arts, whether it is explicitly acknowledged or not.

So personally, I feel like including any new forms at that level is pointless. Like I've mentioned tons of times, you should have enough material at first dan that there's no need to add extra past that. Including new forms. If there purpose is to demonstrate them at a test, that feels like a lost cause for MA. I agree at this point improvement isn't a physical thing, but based on your own students. I'm of the opinion belts past a certain point (imo black belt, but I understand some TKD styles gives black belts to 7 year olds so not specifying here), are there just to indicate your importance in the organization, not your actual combat or teaching ability.

 

[skribs]

Improvement means, for teaching ranks, improving as a teacher, i.e. the progress of that teachers students.

Which is very difficult to demonstrate on a test.

So personally, I feel like including any new forms at that level is pointless. Like I've mentioned tons of times, you should have enough material at first dan that there's no need to add extra past that. Including new forms. If there purpose is to demonstrate them at a test, that feels like a lost cause for MA. I agree at this point improvement isn't a physical thing, but based on your own students. I'm of the opinion belts past a certain point (imo black belt, but I understand some TKD styles gives black belts to 7 year olds so not specifying here), are there just to indicate your importance in the organization, not your actual combat or teaching ability.

I think Taekwondo forms are a little bit different than other styles of forms. My understanding, based on the research I've done, is that the forms are mainly for demonstration purposes, and there isn't a whole lot to be gleaned from them in terms of practical application. I think out of the three common pillars of Taekwondo (forms, sparring, and self-defense), you could take forms out and have no loss of competency in the sparring and self-defense (the practical pillars).

With that said, I do agree that after a certain point, more memorization doesn't really help anyone. I feel memorization can be a good tool at the intermediate level, to encourage folks to practice. At the high level, I think it impedes growth more than helping it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Which is very difficult to demonstrate on a test.

I think Taekwondo forms are a little bit different than other styles of forms. My understanding, based on the research I've done, is that the forms are mainly for demonstration purposes, and there isn't a whole lot to be gleaned from them in terms of practical application. I think out of the three common pillars of Taekwondo (forms, sparring, and self-defense), you could take forms out and have no loss of competency in the sparring and self-defense (the practical pillars).

With that said, I do agree that after a certain point, more memorization doesn't really help anyone. I feel memorization can be a good tool at the intermediate level, to encourage folks to practice. At the high level, I think it impedes growth more than helping it.

To clarify, are you saying that in TKD froms are mainly for demonstration purposes, or that you think TKD is different because in other arts forms are only for demonstration purposes (and not TKD)?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So personally, I feel like including any new forms at that level is pointless. Like I've mentioned tons of times, you should have enough material at first dan that there's no need to add extra past that. Including new forms.

It's not like there are new techniques in those forms. They're things you already know, put in a different order.

If there purpose is to demonstrate them at a test, that feels like a lost cause for MA.

It's more interesting than doing the same things you've already demonstrated. At least a little.

I agree at this point improvement isn't a physical thing, but based on your own students. I'm of the opinion belts past a certain point (imo black belt, but I understand some TKD styles gives black belts to 7 year olds so not specifying here), are there just to indicate your importance in the organization, not your actual combat or teaching ability.

You might be right, but I personally see the "importance in the org" as secondary to teaching.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Which is very difficult to demonstrate on a test.

Not if you understand that "test" is not really the right word for what's happening. But you seem to think the rank is based on physical ability, based on what you've written in this thread. I would say it is not.

I think Taekwondo forms are a little bit different than other styles of forms. My understanding, based on the research I've done, is that the forms are mainly for demonstration purposes, and there isn't a whole lot to be gleaned from them in terms of practical application.

That's a separate discussion. There is a TON of practical application in all the TKD forms I personally know (Taegeuk, Palgwae, Chang Hon, and KKW Yudanha). It's always been disappointing to me that you are unable or unwilling to see just how much. You don't get Dan rank in our system without being able to look at a random technique shown in forms and demonstrate how to use it.

I think out of the three common pillars of Taekwondo (forms, sparring, and self-defense), you could take forms out and have no loss of competency in the sparring and self-defense (the practical pillars).

That's true of any kata/forms training. They're a teaching tool, and mostly useful for teaching groups. They're certainly not the only teaching tool. But it's certainly true that some make better use of them than others.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not like there are new techniques in those forms. They're things you already know, put in a different order.

Do you think the high-ranking test requirement (above 4th degree) can be to:

- create a new form, or
- do MA research topic?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you think the high-ranking test requirement (above 4th degree) can be to:

- create a new form, or
- do MA research topic?

I think they can be whatever arbitrary standards the organization cares to impose. I'm not convinced that requirements such as these would actually do anything to make the person a better instructor, but rank requirements are entirely up to the organization.

 

[HighKick]

If an organization did not have formal testing as part of promotion after say 4th or 5th degree, what would be your opinion of that?

I think for most people (but not all) there is a sliding scale. People who really stick with it, adhere to the school or system standards and have accrued enough to move on to the higher Dan ranks look less at the rank as they go higher. Sure, it is an outstanding accomplishment, but it may not shine as bright as their first Dan did on day one. But it will surely shine steadier and longer.
There is so much that goes into training long enough to get to 5th-6th-7th Dan. Age and physically ability changes things and more importantly, how we do some things, so in this respect we are always learning how to do old movements in new ways. Reconciling this with set standards can really get challenging at times.

My last two non-WT TKD belts were little more than a handshake and a certificate and I was fine with that.

 

[HighKick]

Does TKD have formal tests after that? I thought most martial arts awarded those ranks based on contribution to the art, rather than a formal test. I can't imagine what increase in skill they'd look for beyond 4th degree, that they wouldn't have wanted a 4th dan to have.

In World Taekwondo/Kukkiwon there are test requirements for every Dan rank. But they are pliable at the school level. If a person attends a school with a GM in good enough standing, they may not even need to test in front of a WT board.

 

[HighKick]

So up to 7th dan they still have actual tests? With new material to learn? And an assumption of improving beyond the dan before?

Usually, a form or two may be newish. The rest of the time is spent displaying the person's ability to teach or express their martial art.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In my style, there is nothing new in the curriculum after 4th or 5th degree depending on the school. But is that to say there is nothing more to learn? There may not be any more "what" - but there is a matter of "how." A good 7th or 8th degree will look different than a good 4th degree - more unified in movement, more relaxed. There is that indescribable "something" that can be detected that sets that person apart from those with a mere 20 years experience.

This "something" is not taught - it cannot be taught. It is developed from within the individual - A kind of "enlightenment." When it is, IMO, then the title "Master" can truly come into play, despite the semantic discussion on this in another recent thread. So, while those advanced black belt degrees are largely in recognition of one's service and dedication, there is often an increase in (abstract) skill that is not hampered by age. At least, that's the way I think it ought to be.