What is the 'MOST' well rounded system?

[geocad]

...the only martial art for me now is hwa rang do i have trained in other arts before coming back to hwa rang do it has everything 1 would need for combat but is traditional so it takes awhile

Agreed! I too trained HRD during my college years under KJN KC in Tempe AZ. I mentioned that I enjoyed HRD because it has so much of what I am now looking for in Flagstaff, AZ. I believe it is a very well rounded system.

I guess I should have named this thread "What else closely resembles Hwa Rang Do." If I could train Hwa Rang Do in Flagstaff, I would be there with the whole family.

Thanks for your insight though.
~G

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't think there is a answer to that, all styles are well rounded within the criteria they set, and by there own criteria they win.

Consider MMA, it covers striking, clinch and ground, all in good depth. Might be considered a well rounded system, and under the criteria it sets (one on one unarmed fighting) it is the best.

But is it more rounded then Kung Fu? Which might point out its lack of weapons, multiple attackers, compliance holds (come alongs), internal development, etc?

All depends on what criteria you mean when you say "well rounded" in my mind, and no style can do everything without doing it all very poorly.

 

[arnisador]

I guess I should have named this thread "What else closely resembles Hwa Rang Do."

Kuk Sool Won is pretty close; apart from the weapons, versions of Hapkido that don't over-emphasize either kicking or locking to the detriment of the other are very similar in technique.

all styles are well rounded within the criteria they set, and by there own criteria they win.

Yup. This is a crucial observation. If you intend to fight under Muay Thai rules, study Muay Thai. If you intend to fight under Sumo rules, study Sumo. For arts that aren't sports, there are still unspoken assumptions. Do fights tend to end in trapping range? Think Wing Chun or JKD/JFGF. Do they tend to go the graound? Think BJJ. And so on...

 

[ancient warrior]

ill try to explain deeper mma is not anything like martial arts !!and its sure not well rounded this has been a heavy discussion for a few moons around our dojangs the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony..... how many mma guys bow before entering the cage? in pride theres more martial artists than ufc or k.o.c. now about traditional art training was maybe during your whole life -training within your circle
only w 1-2 head masters every 1 had there purpose weapons/ hand to hand / kicking / grappling to really become a master in hwa rang do will take u in upwards of 25-30........ yrs.............. we use the term complete art .
a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion

 

[shesulsa]

ill try to explain deeper mma is not anything like martial arts !!and its sure not well rounded this has been a heavy discussion for a few moons around our dojangs the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony..... how many mma guys bow before entering the cage? in pride theres more martial artists than ufc or k.o.c. now about traditional art training was maybe during your whole life -training within your circle
only w 1-2 head masters every 1 had there purpose weapons/ hand to hand / kicking / grappling to really become a master in hwa rang do will take u in upwards of 25-30........ yrs.............. we use the term complete art .
a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion

Hey, AW, could you please use standard capitalization and punctuation in your posts? Please notice everyone else does and it's a standard we try to keep to here so all can read and translate text more easily.

Thanks.

And I agree on the HRD.

 

[Andrew Green]

the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony.....

No, Martial arts are about fighting. That's a more modern PR ploy that nt everyone has bought into.

how many mma guys bow before entering the cage?

I think it is very important to not confuse things that are a a neccessary part of martial arts and cultural baggage. There are more ways to show respect then pretending you are Asian.

a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion

So you are defining well rounded based on the criteria of your own art? You don't do more then the rest of us, just different stuff.

 

[Danny T]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

 

[arnisador]

mma is not anything like martial arts

It's not well-rounded in the sense of including weapons or multiple opponents, but i certainly think it's martial arts...as are boxing and wrestling.

a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training

But how many fights?

 

[shesulsa]

But how many fights?

I can't speak for the WHRDA curriculum, it may have changed for all I know. But we are required to demonstrate randori, sparring and grappling as a very small part of our BB test. I don't think we have a fight number requirement, rather demonstrated aptitude.

 

[geocad]

Honostly I didn't think this thread would turn out the way it is. I hear alot of people mentioning things off topic. That's okay, it happens. No worries.

I want to explain my reason for asking about 'well rounded'. I hope my interests were clear. When I was with HRD, every class was a mystery. I never knew what was on the agenda for that evening or day. I really enjoyed this. Even though class was not the same, I/we still learned alot. It made missing a class a real bummer because the previous class was different from the norm. How many of you can predict what your next class is going to be like?

Sometimes class wouldn't even cover our Basic 8 for the various belts or forms. I remember one fun class (years ago the first half of class) all we (everyone from white through the highest belt level in class) did was practice different types of throws. Judo throws to be more specific. The second half of the class continued with ground work based on what we learned from the first half. Since I originally came from a wrestling background, I really enjoyed the jujitsu we were doing.

Another class we worked on sparring (50-75%) with multiple attackers. This was hard but a real eye-opener. Although I got kicked in the head and sweaped at the same time, I had fun and always looked forward to multiple sparring classes.

I'm now in TKD. I enjoy some of the classes but not all of them all the time. Maybe it's my mood or just the work we're doing isn't exciting at that time. I'll get over it. My only gripe (so far) are the basic forms at this lower level. They don't 'flow', are really stiff, and slow. Is this what I should expect with all my new TKD forms? I hope not because I really like forms. At least I liked my HRD short and long forms. I'm sticking with TKD because I have high hopes things will get more exciting.

Oh yeah, a week ago at Judo (I'm in Judo too), I was thrown at least 200 times by a black belt and loved almost every one of them. And yes, I was throwing him too.

Unfortunately, as a parent and husband, I cannot afford to give 4 classes a week to training away from the house since I live 30 minutes away from the TKD dojang and Judo dojo. This is the reason why I made the call for opinions on the various systems that cover so much more.

Thanks for listening.

~G

 

[shesulsa]

Honostly I didn't think this thread would turn out the way it is. I hear alot of people mentioning things off topic. That's okay, it happens. No worries.

I want to explain my reason for asking about 'well rounded'. I hope my interests were clear. When I was with HRD, every class was a mystery. I never knew what was on the agenda for that evening or day. I really enjoyed this. Even though class was not the same, I/we still learned alot. It made missing a class a real bummer because the previous class was different from the norm. How many of you can predict what your next class is going to be like?

Sometimes class wouldn't even cover our Basic 8 for the various belts or forms. I remember one fun class (years ago the first half of class) all we (everyone from white through the highest belt level in class) did was practice different types of throws. Judo throws to be more specific. The second half of the class continued with ground work based on what we learned from the first half. Since I originally came from a wrestling background, I really enjoyed the jujitsu we were doing.

Another class we worked on sparring (50-75%) with multiple attackers. This was hard but a real eye-opener. Although I got kicked in the head and sweaped at the same time, I had fun and always looked forward to multiple sparring classes.

I'm now in TKD. I enjoy some of the classes but not all of them all the time. Maybe it's my mood or just the work we're doing isn't exciting at that time. I'll get over it. My only gripe (so far) are the basic forms at this lower level. They don't 'flow', are really stiff, and slow. Is this what I should expect with all my new TKD forms? I hope not because I really like forms. At least I liked my HRD short and long forms. I'm sticking with TKD because I have high hopes things will get more exciting.

Oh yeah, a week ago at Judo (I'm in Judo too), I was thrown at least 200 times by a black belt and loved almost every one of them. And yes, I was throwing him too.

Unfortunately, as a parent and husband, I cannot afford to give 4 classes a week to training away from the house since I live 30 minutes away from the TKD dojang and Judo dojo. This is the reason why I made the call for opinions on the various systems that cover so much more.

Thanks for listening.

~G

Ah. I thought you were fishing for competition with the HRD classes I thought you were still taking.

I'd say unless you go with something like BBT you're likely to be stuck where you are - my *admittedly very limited* experience with TKD is that there is much linear, regimented and predictable study with the rare exception and that depends upon the instructor and his/her experience. Judo's always fun. If you want that excitement back, return to HRD.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

BINGO! This is something I have been preaching for the 2 1/2 years I have been on this site. REP from ME!

 

[shesulsa]

Yes, however, I think the question really is: "What style can I train in which will give me at least a cursory knowledge of as many of the key elements of martial training as possible and still be effective?" I read it as a "one-stop-shopping" question.

Anybody who has enough time and money can seek out a teacher who has good experience, worthwhile credentials in various disciplines and spend extra time at the training hall, or take classes from three or four different locations. But if one is going to spend that kind of money and invest that kind of time, is it not more convenient and likely more efficient (and hopefully at least just as successful) to train in a discipline which covers all these areas, even if it means a longer time commitment to reach higher ranks if a lifetime endeavor is present?

The question makes sense to me.

 

[geocad]

If you want that excitement back, return to HRD.

Thanks G but because of my geographic location, your suggestion is no longer an option for me. KJN KC is too far to commute. http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=G...,-112.763672&spn=17.013313,29.619141&z=5&om=1

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well, how much rank did you have in Hwa Rang Do? Have you considered brushing up on your Hwa Rang Do, and opening your own school?

 

[shesulsa]

Thanks G but because of my geographic location, your suggestion is no longer an option for me. KJN KC is too far to commute. http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=G...,-112.763672&spn=17.013313,29.619141&z=5&om=1

Oh, that's right - forgot, sorry. Shame - KJN KC is a *great* teacher.

 

[ancient warrior]

In my humble opinion u need to stay with a system for many years and be a disciple to only 1 art endure all that art has to offer go thru the pain the mental agony the physical changes as well as the psycological changes, the core of all arts is to become better in society and for society with passing the true arts ,, in hrd we have the meng sae, bushido have a code of ethics as all other original arts, otherwise we become cold & unrespectfull! if u believe its how many fights u have and fights youve won. you have the wrong teacher.. They should name the school *** kicking university, not a martial arts studio. I have a friend that owns a tkd school what a great place to train but theres no real tradition there anymore .Every 1 wants the short cuts to make their art better .so they leave out the core to make it interesting and have more clients.. when was the last time you devoted a whole class to bowing or kneeling w proper posture or have a discussion on why u train in your art? be true u will find the real you !!

 

[Andrew Green]

All a matter of opinion, you might consider that "true", while I would consider it very artificial.

Fighting is what we do, everything comes through that. When you fight with someone trying to knock you out, you learn a lot more about yourself then sitting on the floor meditating will ever teach you.

Fights don't even have to be physical to get that, but in martial arts, they are. Although IMO the benefit crosses over into other things.

If you really want to learn about yourself it comes from how you act under pressure, not how you act when nothing can possibly go wrong. Whether it is a physical fight, a job negotiation, or fighting cancer, that is where you find your character development.

 

[exile]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

BINGO! This is something I have been preaching for the 2 1/2 years I have been on this site. REP from ME!

And rep from me too, Danny. There is so much crystallized common sense in this statement that it seems as if very little more needs be said on that particular point. Interestingly, this is yet another, very well-stated expression of the idea that it's not the art per se, but (i) how it's taught and (ii) how you choose to train it, which makes for both effectiveness and what GC identifies as excitement.

All a matter of opinion, you might consider that "true", while I would consider it very artificial.

Fighting is what we do, everything comes through that. When you fight with someone trying to knock you out, you learn a lot more about yourself then sitting on the floor meditating will ever teach you.

Again, very true and very nicely put.

If you really want to learn about yourself it comes from how you act under pressure, not how you act when nothing can possibly go wrong. Whether it is a physical fight, a job negotiation, or fighting cancer, that is where you find your character development.

And believe it or not, that was a position that you find even in the Western mystical tradition. Meditation and contemplation were taken to be effective only when they had `food' to digest—experience. When I was an undergraduate, in one of my humanities survey courses, we had a text written by one of the great mediæval mystics, damned if I can remember which one, in the form of a dialogue between a young man and an old, revered hermit scholar whom the former has searched out to ask about the nature of God. The old mystic listens to the boy's questions, especially how he should live his life, and then tells him to become a soldier. To fight, to learn the customs and habits of a wide variety of other places (just about the only way of doing that in the Middle Ages, unless you were very rich) and then, after many years of accumulating experience, to do what the old man has done: try to see the common basis of all of his experiences, and God's nature will emerge after he contemplates his life experiences carefully and honestly, undistracted by the need to please others. The boy is pretty surprised—you mean I actually have to do something before God reveals Himself to me?? :lol: I loved it...

GC, there's one thing I think you might consider. Arts, even though they ultimately share a common technical core, differ greatly in how their curricula are structured. TKD, like other variants of karate, tend to have very highly structured curricula; my impression from talking to Kenpoka is that Kenpo (of the EP variety, anyway) is sort of the logical extreme of this approach. The karate-based arts in general don't allow much `mystery' or spontaneity. But as Danny and CN would probably agree, that's really a function of the individual school curriculum. So, for example, suppose you had a TKD school where, after the warmup and the work on basic kihon drills, the instructor announced a particular hyung and told you, `OK, we're looking at moves 5 through 8. Perform those.' And everyone did. Then the instructor said, `All right, imagine that an attacker has grabbed you with his left hand by your shirt and is clearly preparing to use that grab as to immobilize you while he winds up a right hook to your jaw to deck you. Find the fighting application of those four moves which will enable you to knock him out/break his neck/force him to the ground/...? by the last move—regardless of what he tries to do to resist! Find a partner, work out the application so the outcome is forced, and then we're all going to watch you perform it and explain it.' And suppose every class had a twenty minute or half-hour segment along those lines... would that not be exciting (and a little bit scary... putting your best SD analysis of the hyung out there for everyone to see)?

OK, at most dojangs, TKD isn't taught that way. But there's no reason it couldn't be, or wouldn't be if you found the right instructor. It's a very nonstandard curriculum approach... but it's certainly not unknown; an increasing number of UK dojangs, influenced by the bunkai-jutsu movement in karate there, do something like this. So the excitement factor is I think really a matter of instructor choice. Anything can be made mechanical, repetitive and predictable, but if there's one thing I learned at the M&G training sessions we had in Buffalo this past weekend, it's that there's no such thing as an inherent unexciting MA...

 

[Mary Chant]

I certainly am limited in experience and rank compared to those who have posted thus far, but that's never stopped me from having an opinion . I've studied Uechi-Ryu, a little Judo and dabbled in some others, and have been studying a modified Shorin-Ryu with a Wado component for 5 1/2 years. There are certain elements of each that resonate with me for reasons other than being a well-rounded system. But, what I have also observed is that there were commonalities among all the styles, and the important piece was how well the instructor understood and could convey its core elements into survival and fighting techniqes. Ground work, ukemi, sabaki (sp?), reaction time, speed, etc., can be found in each of the styles I've been privileged to study; it seems that what can make the biggest difference is what the Sensei chooses to emphasize and how effective s/he is at communicating it.

Mary