What is the finishing move in Systema?

[arnisador]

Looking at Systema videos and video clips, including the ones from Mr. Puzikas' site that were mentioned recently, I see a great many defenses that seem to amount to a slick way of tripping/nudging/pulling the other person to the floor. (I hope that doesn't sound dismissive--it looks very neat, and I see isolated techniques that I know and like to use in there, but as is so often the case with Systema I find myself at a loss for appropriate descriptive terms for the moves.) Many of these don't appear to be fight-enders from my vantage point.

I think of boxing having as an ideal finishing move a strong cross or hook or overhand, BJJ an arm-lock or choke, karate a strong reverse punch or a low kick to the knee or groin, etc., etc.--in these systems the overall strategy is to get to a point where such a technique can be thrown, by smart use of the jab, or good positioning on the ground, or a strong block and strong stance, etc. Of course, this is an oversimplification in each case, but I am asking: What is an 'ideal' or 'typical' finishing technique in Systema? A punch, a throw, a lock, or what? Is it that the take-downs I'm seeing would be more dangerous if the uke didn't know how to take the fall/absorb the momentum?

I hope my question is clear!

 

[Jay Bell]

Outstanding question, arnisador

Unfortunately it's one that can't be answered very easily There isn't really a goal when doing the work...IE...there's no "endpoint" as in a jointlock, choke or throw necessarily. Taking the choke for example, though you have the upper hand in the perfect choke scenario, you are focusing heavily on that one instance. In multiple attacker situations, you've bound yourself on to one set person with one set goal in mind. It's easy to get tunnel vision in these types of situation which can block out other dangers happening.

I guess if one was to pinpoint the ideal situation is simply that the opponent(s) end up defeating themselves. Movements that we do cause very heavy handed blows, opening, hard falls and the like...if the opponent continues while on the ground, there isn't much of an opportunity given to where they can capatalize once downed. Many times, as they are falling, things flow into the person as they hit the ground and continue until the person is "done".

 

[NYCRonin]

There is no characteristic finishing 'move' in Systema, at least none I know of; Arnisadore. Although I understand how you can be wondering from the things shown in clips. When I have used Systema in real defense, I have rarely even found the need for a 'slick' takedown - though I practise and teach them. Jay gave a good idea of what we do in training.
To expound abit on what Jay wrote - we 'do the work' until 'the work' is done.
As cryptic as that sounds, it is not delberatly so - its just the best way I have to answer your question.

 

[Jay Bell]

Very well put, Rob

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Taking the choke for example, though you have the upper hand in the perfect choke scenario, you are focusing heavily on that one instance. In multiple attacker situations, you've bound yourself on to one set person with one set goal in mind. It's easy to get tunnel vision in these types of situation which can block out other dangers happening.

That makes sense to me.

On the one hand what has been posted sounds very logical, but on the other hand one usually imagines having a strategy and goal--like a BJJ person working from bottom to side to mount to armbar--and so this is a different way of thinking about things!

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Originally posted by arnisador
...... but on the other hand one usually imagines having a strategy and goal......

Strategies and goals generally require conscious thought and planning. Conscious thought and problem solving is always slower than instinctive reaction. My understanding of Systema is that one of it's (the arts) primary goals is to help students come in touch with their instincts, i.e. we already know how to fight and survive, just like every other creature on the planet. Society begins dumping all sorts of garbage on us immediately and we lose touch with our instincts.

mark

 

[Furtry]

Excellent explanations by the above people.
RobG I'm borrowing the "Do the work till the work is done"
Arnisador, I tell my students that not every shot is a finishing shot. Just like in boxing your rite cross might not be enough. So keep moving till he stops moving.
I also have 'finished' people with out realizing that the movement I did was a finishing move. When you move correctly (that whole action vs. activity thing) you are able to deliver sufficient 'finishing' power.

 

[Jay Bell]

Arnisador, I tell my students that not every shot is a finishing shot.

Good thoughts. I remember when in the Bujinkan, Nagato sensei made mention in Ben Cole's book to something similar. He explained that only sports have the "one shot knockout" mentality. In real combat, while one hangs out for the one shot opportunity, they are being killed in the process.

 

[psi_radar]

I had the good fortune to work out with Klondike93 (Hey Chuck!and Brad Scornavacco out here a little while back, though I don't by any means train in Systema full time. One thing I can say, after seeing lots of Systema videos and then going out and actually trying to do the work, is that the art appears a lot more soft and gentle than it CAN be.

Though Systema may look a bit like dancing at first glance, I have NEVER been hit with such force before. I've certainly been hit that hard physically, but the Systema strikes have a certain psyche-disruption about them that I find hard to explain and especially devastating and incapacitating.

Due to these hidden attributes, I think a lot of "finishing moves" in Systema could appear to be what we'd consider "minor moves" in Kenpo.

 

[NYCRonin]

"I've certainly been hit that hard physically, but the Systema strikes have a certain psyche-disruption about them that I find hard to explain and especially devastating and incapacitating. "

psi_radar
If youve seen alot of the vids. - in particular the recent STRIKES vid - then you have seen the effect of the way Systema generates force into the hits (In STRIKES - I am the lucky guy getting hammered by Col Ryabco - the leader of Systema). The disruption you mention is strange, impossible to really describe in words - but they are very different than any other I experienced in my previous MA studies. These 'into the body' type strikes dont even damage the organs - but, as you know; pretty much end the confrontation. Thats one reason why I have not really relied on 'slick' takedowns when really having to utilize Systema. These strikes are only a part of the striking/kicking methodology - there are others.
I was no new commer to MA or H2H combat when I first was exposed to Systema, but it only took one session with Vlad to make me realize that this was 'a horse of another color'. Systema is hard to describe in this medium, vid's only show a limited view -- it really is something that best experienced. It is not for everybodys taste - to each his own - but for me, and the others drawn to it; there is nothing else like it in the MA family.

 

[Arthur]

Many excellent things already said. I’d like to add a few things, to fill out the more “concrete” side of the answers.

Systema is not a sport, it is a survival art for real life, as such “finishing moves will vary greatly depending on the context, needs and goals. In Systema a “finishing move” could range from verbal descalation to blowing someone’s head off with an ak-47. Within that range there are a plethora of gradations of violence and more importantly solutions.

I see a great many defenses that seem to amount to a slick way of tripping/nudging/pulling the other person to the floor. (I hope that doesn't sound dismissive--it looks very neat, and I see isolated techniques that I know and like to use in there, but as is so often the case with Systema I find myself at a loss for appropriate descriptive terms for the moves.) Many of these don't appear to be fight-enders from my vantage point.

There are many other aspects to Systema, but such methodologies are perhaps over represented in our exposure to the world, so let’s talk from that base. What can a simple trip accomplish?

Well if I stick my elbow or knee out as he falls down… a pretty nasty and disorienting bump or even a knock out. If I change the angle slightly from the practice version, the opponent can smash his head into the concrete, if I place my arm, leg, hand etc. in the right place, his bodyweight can break his own neck. I can step on his foot while he falls so he breaks his ankle, or place a barrier in front of his knee to destroy the soft tissue there.

While he is falling I can deploy my pistol and proceed accordingly, or I could take that opportunity to run away to cover or safety.

While the opponent is falling, he is generally not attacking me, it allows me to “steal time”, to make decisions.

When he falls on the ground it allows me to proceed with any number of fight terminators that are easy to apply from there. I can smash his head against the curb, whipstrike him in the trachea, tear his arm from the socket by kicking his armpit, boot him in the jaw with my steel toed boot. I can smash his elbow, knee or ankle into the pavement. I could handcuff him, restrain him, pin him while my partner does any of the above.

Downing the opponent is but one aspect of the realm of work in Systema, but it clearly has many uses. Its practice is very important though, because it teaches one to control and lead the opponent. If I can lead him all the way to the ground, then I can lead him a few inches, or change his direction. In this, a gluttony of uses arise. When I can make the opponents movements my own, then I can do anything I want to… and that is ultimately what such practice is for.

Arthur

 

[psi_radar]

NYCRonin--

Looking forward to seeing you on the "strikes" video, it was one of the few things I asked for from my wife for a christmas present--that and a 26-inch ASP baton. Boy, is she patient.

With or without my best judgement, I tried to imitate one of the shots Brad demonstrated on me on another Kenpo black belt who is curious about the System. Even my paltry version of a Systema low-penetration abdominal blow dropped him and I had to encourage him to recover as Brad had to me, moving around to get the energy out. It was one of those "wow" moments on both ends. Videos really don't convey the effectiveness, though they're impressive at face value. I encourage any martial artist to get to a Systema studio to experience it for themselves.

 

[Brian King]

psi_radar
You live in Longmont CO? Will you be going to Vladimir's seminar there??

Colorado Seminar
February 07, 2004 - February 08, 2004
Longmont, CO
United States
Contact Brad Scornavacco at 720-317-6614 or [email protected]

I will be there so I hope that if you go you introduce yourself.
See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian King

 

[psi_radar]

Brian--

I just need to make the formal arrangements--I'll definitely seek you out.

See you there,

Pete Rishel

 

[teej]

An interesting question and observation posted by Arnisador originally. So here is my limited view of System. Lets start with a basic back ground in that I have been studying for 24 yrs. I have seen a lot and heard a lot of things over the years.

I first heard of Systema several yrs. ago. I heard stories and read printed material. Hard to believe when you are reading, but some of the stuff I was hearing came from some people that I respected highly. Then it happened and I met Vladimir in person, attending a seminar of his. One of the nicest and most leathal individuals you will ever meet. He is a excellent instructor.

After experiencing Systema first hand, in person, then looking at the tapes, you will have a bette understanding. As far a finishing moves, to me the way I interpreted your question, sounds like you are looking for a set way to finish a technique?

My experience is that you will not find a set way in Systema. Again you have to witness and experience it first hand yourself. Each and every situation is different. You may never deal with a right punch, for ex. the same way twice. It is all about motion and YOUR (key phrase here) natural body reaction to a given circumstance. If in class, working a drill, you and a friend will deal with the same type of attack differently, reacting differently, your opponent is diferent, your ending will be different.

Will there or is there an ending or finishing move? Certainly. Can I, you or anyone else tell you what it will be? No, not until you get to that point in your reaction to the given situation, at that time, on that particular day, then your body, mind, reactions will tell you how to finish it. Very hard to explain, so I urge you to try to attend a seminar to experience it yourself so you will understand.

If you have been training a while in whatever kind of disipline, you have finishing moves. You know how to end things. Systema is about natural body reactions. You will not find set techniques or set moves in Systema. Finishing moves?, sure they are there, it is just that noone can tell you what they will be. Just believe me that they are there and you will have them when you need them.

Teej

 

[Pervaz]

Cant "the finishing move"be the one that lets you get home safetly (and with minimium legal recourse ) .. trying to define what it is means that you have a "technique" or a pattern .. it could be (99.5% probability) is that it will be an accident ..

P

 

[teej]

exactly!!! Well put. Wish I had thought of it that way when I tried to explain my point.

You still have to experience Systema first hand to understand. Then the written material and tapes will make more sense.

:asian:

Teej