Systema Article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts

[Clive]

I am not an authority on the System by any means but I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. why would I go study how to take advantage of my own more-or-less natural responses, like flinching, when I study an art whose oldest technique--"Intellectual Departure," relies on flinching naturally away from a kick?

2. if the attacker happens to be the kind of guy who won't let go, you're in trouble. But what if he ain't? What if he comes forward anyway? What if he yanks that arm back? What if he ducks and takes that pounch to the temple on top of his head? And that wrist-lock with the knife pointed up into your own armpit--I can think of six folks I have to train with, offhand, who will make you pay immediately for such an arrogance.

3. Yes, I understand that Systema folks just go on to the next thing. But what I find bothersome is that that "next thing," has a sort of assumption of invulnerability built into it--there're no checks, no "failsafe," components to the pictured reactions to attacks. Maybe Mr. Wheeler can make this work--but it looks too risky; it looks built on too many assumptions about what an attacker "must," do.

4. Kenpo, instead, goes with what das Clyde calls, "even if." With a sort of middle road approach that doesn't rely on everything going right every time, and doesn't require the perfection that can only come (if ever) a long way down the road...and kenpo argues (sorry to anthropomorphize) that even then, somebody really skilled will avoid having to be so all-fired perfect.

5. I have to add, too, that we all--let me repeat, we all--need to be a little careful about reasoning from authority, about magical thinking, about replacing analysis with slogans, etc.

1. If your initial reaction is to flinch then the System would say to use this as the basis for your movement.

2. That is the whole point of constant movement that the System promotes, you presume nothing, but respond to the situation, doing what you need to to neutralise the attack. The most obvious way of doing this is to move away from the potential danger, if this does not work you try to win psychologically, if this does not work then you engage. Once the engagement has finished you move away from the danger. At all times not only should consider other opponents, hidden weapons etc. but you must look at things that may be used as an advantage such as weapons on at the scene and people who may be able to help. I don't see how this is arrogant, just good sense.

3. I don't where there is an assumption, the System is based on movement. I would say that a lot of the main stream arts bear the real assumption, you must have heard 'if i do this you will do this' spoken in the dojo, what is this if not assumption. There is no invulnerabilty to it, but it is good to bear in mind that there must be a balance with confidence, too little will force you to think what you are going to do will not work and over confidence allows you to underestimate the opponent, the same balance applies to fear.

4. The point you made about das Clyde and 'even if' is very similar to the points that I have been making.

5. I agree, question everything

I hope these points answer any questions you have and hopefully will raise more and that you maintain your interest in this fascinating art. :cheers:

Clive

 

[kenpoworks]

The posts in this thread are not by any mean the general opinion from Kenpoists about Systema.
From experience..RM's are an "unrestricted" form of Kenpo.
Rich

 

[NYCRonin]

I dont quite get that.

If your statement is correct, might one assume that Kenpo is a restricted form of RMA.
Or are we dealing with stylistic semantics....or just the concept of good movement expressed.

 

[kenpoworks]

I should have wrote..."SOME AREAS OF"... RMA's... "APPEAR TO BE" an "unrestricted" form of Kenpo".
In my very limited experience of RMA, the theory, concepts and principles of motion as well as self defence ( that some kenpoists seem to be theoretically fixated with) i.e. good posture, good balance, relaxed movement, target penetration, environmental considerations etc.etc.etc...are present and practised when training in Systema.
Some times instructors can hide behind a wall of too much terminology or jargon and the theoretical side of the subject which should be releasing students abilities ends up restricting them.
I like most people appreciate good movement as well as good form, from "my perspective" Systema seems to have both of these components.

 

[NYCRonin]

OK...got it!
I have a very fleeting experince with Kenpo as tuaght by the very late Russel Kozuki...not a Parkerist nor Traceyist...but he was a Kenpo-ist. THAT was almost 40 years ago...YIPES!

I often say 'good movement is good movement...regardless of its source'. And to me, a seeker of martial knowledge is not constrained by style nor title. One of the best 'Masters' I ever came to know and respect would work with full beginners - and return to japan with a couple of observatioanl notebooks of what he had experienced! COOL!

Systema. Its kinda odd - even in the RMA lexicon of martiality. So many find so much that makes sense to them, even if they have experience in any other martial method from the world..and sir,now I feel you do the same.

As a 'teacher' of Systema - I find that totally understandable. As a multi-art trained older exponent of m.a. - I find the above very good to read, from you.

No, no real Kempo here - just 'movement' that does 'the work'. I understand your mentioning of the 'wall' -- and I feel you see over it - for I also feel, from the above; that you share that strange 'understanding' beyond any style or method.
And for that - I salute the seeker in you!

If ever you cross paths with the Bogey Man From Bklyn -- remind me of the above post....and we will work together...and gain from time shared.

 

[kenpoworks]

Thank you,If I ever get to New York I will gladly take you up on your offer of training.
Rich

 

[arnisador]

I can certainly--and I think most posters on Kenponet also can--take you in detail through a kenpo defense against a knife and discuss in some explicit, clear detail why it works or doesn't work, what the possible issues might be, what the basic principles are, etc.

In theory, theory and practice are the same...and in principle, I can tell someone how to out-box Mike Tyson. Kenpo's extensive terminology is a strength, but overthinking is a danger too.

This is the Kevin Secours article? I have the issue here but haven't read it yet. I know when I've watched Systema tapes many things seem to violate FMA principles, but I know that there aremany ways to skin a cat.