After being recently informed, by a well respected Kenpo Master, that it is idiotic to believe the yellow belt material is the base of our art, What is the base of the art?
Sean
Sean
What is our base?
- Thread starter Touch Of Death
- Start date
Your basics, meaning punch, kick, block, stance, etc. Everything else is a combination of those.
Given that the American Kenpo yellow belt was designed after the remainder of the curriculum (for kids) and revised at least once, it is hard to argue that it is the base of the system. I see it in a continuum of training, but if this was truly the "base" I would expect to see a greater variety of footwork. The uppercase motion may be there, but the footwork is lacking significant examples.
Given that the American Kenpo yellow belt was designed after the remainder of the curriculum (for kids) and revised at least once, it is hard to argue that it is the base of the system. I see it in a continuum of training, but if this was truly the "base" I would expect to see a greater variety of footwork. The uppercase motion may be there, but the footwork is lacking significant examples.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
After being recently informed, by a well respected Kenpo Master, that it is idiotic to believe the yellow belt material is the base of our art, What is the base of the art?
Sean
Hello...
It is the "base" of the first belt level. Nothing more and nothing less.
As Mr. Glass stated. It was added later on and was not original to the "classic" curriculum of Kenpo. How can you add a "true" base to anything after it is constructed?
I believe the yellow belt came into real prominence in the very early 80's, although I am sure some would argue that it was earlier or later. With the commercial boom, part two. Kenpo is about "argue", it seems. A worthy topic to argue in most cases.
If you ask five Kenpo "masters" the same question you are likely to get, at least, four different answers. See there... I was a little P.C....
Kenpo is about individual study, experimentation, understanding and discovery. Many perceive the same things differently. Enjoy the ride...Interesting topic. Thank you,
Milt G.
MattJ
Brown Belt
After being recently informed, by a well respected Kenpo Master, that it is idiotic to believe the yellow belt material is the base of our art, What is the base of the art?
Sean
That's a good question, and I would guess that it depends upon what time-frame we are discussing. I would argue that, currently, the yellow belt material is the defacto base for the art. It is the first thing that people learn, and contains enough material to create effective self-defense. When students used to ask me "when will we learn enough to be able to fight?", I would just point to the yellow belt charts. So many folks do not engage in a deep enough study of what they are currently working on before trying to get to the next level.
Further back in time...........?
What does it mean to be the "base" of an Art?
I thought the "base" of American kenpo was chow's hawaiian kenpo and Ark Wong's kung fu. so maybe the definition of "base of an art" needs to be defined before a good answer can be given?
the yellow techs are the vehicle through which a teacher teaches the initial ideas of the system (for some teachers at least) is that some kind of definition of "base"?
I thought the "base" of American kenpo was chow's hawaiian kenpo and Ark Wong's kung fu. so maybe the definition of "base of an art" needs to be defined before a good answer can be given?
the yellow techs are the vehicle through which a teacher teaches the initial ideas of the system (for some teachers at least) is that some kind of definition of "base"?
Interesting, that is almost the exact same answer T.O.D. was told by the 'well respected master' LOL
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
That where everyone was missing what I was saying. If you do kenpo, your base is the yellow belt material, the art itself was devised from what ever sources you can name. To automaticly defy the point someone is making, when it is quite obvious that the practitioners begin with the yellow belt material and the art has a varied history is not exactly the most intellegent way to discuss what a base is, when it both points are quite valid. context is everything and that well respected "Master" knew the difference but chose to act as if he didn't.
Sean
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
You may notice that despite revisions, everyone is introduced to kenpo with some yellow belt variant.
Sean
In the ongoing discussion about what the base is, the base(ics) are the foundation of the building, yellow belt is the lobby.
I'm going with Blindside on this. I'm curious as to what is so special about the yellow belt material, that it would be considered the base? If we look at all of the techniques, while they, as we move up in rank, may teach a more advanced attack, have more detailed movement, etc., they all consist of what I consider to be basics, ie: blocks, punches, kicks, footwork, etc.
That being said, I feel its those things that are the base. Without those, then nothing we do will amount to anything, because if the basics suck, then everything else will too.
That being said, I feel its those things that are the base. Without those, then nothing we do will amount to anything, because if the basics suck, then everything else will too.
JamesB
Green Belt
There's no disputing that 'yellow belt' as we know it arrived later. But that doesn't mean it can't be considered the base of the system, as it contains the fundamental components that can be seen repeated later in the system at orange onwards - namely, neutral bows, inward blocks, outward blocks etc.
Whilst it can be considered that yellow-belt is a 'stripped down' kenpo, made simpler for women+children, that doesn't have to mean it's not the base. Personally I believe that the less complex yellow-belt curriculum exposes the base of kenpo in a clearer way, and by doing that highlights the foundation on which one can see the rest of kenpo has been built. Yes I know, yellow came afterwards and orange/purple etc were not derived from the yellow-belt technques/forms.
I just look at it the other way - yellow-belt was created to provide a clearer view of the foundation of kenpo. The base was already there, yellow-belt just gives us a simpler definition.
Whilst it can be considered that yellow-belt is a 'stripped down' kenpo, made simpler for women+children, that doesn't have to mean it's not the base. Personally I believe that the less complex yellow-belt curriculum exposes the base of kenpo in a clearer way, and by doing that highlights the foundation on which one can see the rest of kenpo has been built. Yes I know, yellow came afterwards and orange/purple etc were not derived from the yellow-belt technques/forms.
I just look at it the other way - yellow-belt was created to provide a clearer view of the foundation of kenpo. The base was already there, yellow-belt just gives us a simpler definition.
I agree that the above mentioned things are used later in other techniques. But...I teach those things first, before they learn a technique, then those tools are put together in a preset pattern. Later on, I encourage the student to not think in a preset pattern, but to eventually just be able to react, using whatever tool is best suited for that moment. So, to clarify, I teach the punches, blocks, kicks, stances, from a static position first, then introduce them with the techs.
If those things are in other techs., then aside from the attack being more advanced, you could teach a blue belt tech to a yellow belt and still show them the concepts of a neutral bow, blocks, etc.
Doc
Senior Master
I guess it really depends upon "what" kenpo you're talking about, and when it was practiced if one chooses to go down that road. My only question is, "How could something be considered the base, when it itself is comprised of other base" material? Then the "Base of the art, would have a base." Then the question could come up, "What is the base of the base of the art?" Then those base moves are comprised of other smaller physical movements that must be done a certain way, so "What is the base, of the base, of the base of the art ..... ?
So for me, in reality I feel the base of any art is its driving philosophies, concepts, and principles to express those philosophies within the context of the art. This is what gives any art a "Martial Identity" that separates it from other like-arts. It is the reason MMA doesn't bite or poke. It is the reason TKD doesn't allow groin kicks and handwork is minor to kicking. It is why Judo does, randori, and Filipino has sticks and knife work. It is the reason that real arts have real science principles to express it over conceptual ideas which are nothing more than empty philosophies.
To suggest it is a series of techniques, or forms, or sets ignores the reality that all of those things are made up of basic physical skills that all arts possess on some level and choose to teach. Which would mean the base of one art is really not much different form any other art making the question itself, moot.
So for me, in reality I feel the base of any art is its driving philosophies, concepts, and principles to express those philosophies within the context of the art. This is what gives any art a "Martial Identity" that separates it from other like-arts. It is the reason MMA doesn't bite or poke. It is the reason TKD doesn't allow groin kicks and handwork is minor to kicking. It is why Judo does, randori, and Filipino has sticks and knife work. It is the reason that real arts have real science principles to express it over conceptual ideas which are nothing more than empty philosophies.
To suggest it is a series of techniques, or forms, or sets ignores the reality that all of those things are made up of basic physical skills that all arts possess on some level and choose to teach. Which would mean the base of one art is really not much different form any other art making the question itself, moot.
I guess I was looking at it like a house. You need to have a foundation first, then put up the walls, then the roof. If you tried to put a roof on first, nothing would be there to hold it up. If we dont know how to punch or move first, then is anything else we do going to be effective?
I dont know...maybe I'm just missing something, but I'd think that we'd have to start somewhere with something.
BTW, its nice to see you posting again Doc. I was wondering where you were.
pete
Master Black Belt
The base of the art is not getting hit.
Doc
Senior Master
I guess I was looking at it like a house. You need to have a foundation first, then put up the walls, then the roof. If you tried to put a roof on first, nothing would be there to hold it up. If we dont know how to punch or move first, then is anything else we do going to be effective?
I dont know...maybe I'm just missing something, but I'd think that we'd have to start somewhere with something.
BTW, its nice to see you posting again Doc. I was wondering where you were.
Of course you're right sir but, all arts have the same building blocks, albeit they may be assembled somewhat differently. I guess my answer is tied closely to the over-riding philosophy I was taught that states Stances, Punches, Kicks, Strikes, and Footwork are the universal base of ALL arts, but to what degree, what you emphasize, and how you execute those things is what separate one art from another.
Life and work has been really weighing me down, thanks for noticing sir.
Doc
Senior Master
You're so quick I couldn't even finish before you finished it for me. You are absolutely right sir. No doubt, and that is where most arts also fall apart because they tend to "mumble" their own building blocks for the sake of expediency and retention. It is a paradox in that it is what separates most arts, but also what makes most of them pretty much the same.
Doc
Senior Master
Something many seem to forget Pete.
"When it happens I won't even notice, cause I'll be too busy lookin good!" - WIlliams (from Enter the Dragon)
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
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