What is kenpo lacking?

[Ceicei]

Well, seems to me there aren't any ground fighting techniques originally in Kenpo. Looks like you have to find a school that has created some or find a ground fighting style.

Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.

I guess that makes my kenpo school "taboo" or rather, a progressive school. We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added on top of our standard curriculum. However, these are generally taught to the children early before the adults get to learn them.

- Ceicei

 

[MisterMike]

I guess that makes my kenpo school "taboo" or rather, a progressive school. We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added on top of our standard curriculum. However, these are generally taught to the children early before the adults get to learn them.

- Ceicei

Hey, at least they are there!

 

[Goldendragon7]

I guess that makes my kenpo school a progressive school. We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added. - Ceicei

Yes, you could say that. Good for your instructor and you. As long as you keep the principles alive and accurate ..... no problem, you are actively "doing" KENPO!

Yet, there are some out there with limited knowledge of the System, that would brand some studios with terms like "taboo" and state that because it does not come out of the Infinite Insights or "those" manuals it is invalid or, well bad or wrong.

This is far from the truth​

.

You see, if you read very carefully, you will find and see that these areas are discussed and necessary areas of study in EPAK. Just because there are not "specific" ground techniques in "those" manuals .... some seem to feel we are without...... sigh.... Oh well, examine their lineage and you'll probably find why they say what they do.

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I...I...I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.

Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another: Al Tracy with Shootfighting, John McSweeney with Judo, John Sepulveda with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., etc. Some Kenpoists are trying to apply their Kenpo techniques directly onto the ground--with mixed results. Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.

As Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Submission Wrestling grow in popularity and availability, it behooves every Kenpoist to take a class or attend a seminar to get some basic idea of what the grapplers think and do. I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Yes, you could say that. Good for your instructor and you. As long as you keep the principles alive and accurate ..... no problem, you are actively "doing" KENPO!

Mr. C, I usually defer completely to your wisdom and eloquence. This time, I have to respond:

There are many good Kenpoists who are doing good Kenpo who do not "keep the principles alive and accurate" and instead teach an older form of Kenpo learned from Mr. Parker or the Tracy's where articulation of the principles is not the main teaching vehicle.

Yet, there are some out there with limited knowledge of the System, that would brand some studios with terms like "taboo" and state that because it does not come out of the Infinite Insights or "those" manuals it is invalid or, well bad or wrong.

There are also many with very deep knowledge of the system who feel very strongly that the Kenpo OUTLINED in Infinite Insights, that Mr. Parker taught to them in great detail, needs no alteration or enhancement.

You see, if you read very carefully, you will find and see that these areas are discussed and necessary areas of study in EPAK. Just because there are not "specific" ground techniques in "those" manuals .... some seem to feel we are without...... sigh.... Oh well, examine their lineage and you'll probably find why they say what they do.

Here, I think you have a great insight. But lineage cannot always predict fealty. There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parker’s path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.

 

[KenpoTess]

We incorporate Samurai Jui-jitsu with AK and it works for us.
Almost every sparring session someone ends up on the ground,(on purpose.. just to practice grappling)..
so in a real altercation at least we will have an idea how to deal.

Tess

 

[pete]

There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parker’s path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.

better to have a wheel in the ditch than to drive constantly down the middle of the road...

 

[Goldendragon7]

I...I... I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.

Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another.

Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.

I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.

OFK.... I hear what you are saying and agree. At the same time, I do feel that the Base System does have the "elements" to be able to adjust the given standup material to the ground. Granted not all instructors have the skill to do that possibly... at which case what you say is revelent.... check out what is out there and see if any thing is of benefit to you.... (that's what Ed Parker did in the early days...... for gosh sakes). LOL

So if you can.... use the system .... if you can't..... go explore. :uhyeah: simple..... :jedi1:

 

[kenpo_cory]

In our school we address the "going to the ground issue" but we haven’t created any techniques specifically for the ground. We basically focus on how to defend ourselves while were down and the most proficient way to return to our feet.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Old Fat Kenpoka.....
Mr. C, I usually defer completely to your wisdom and eloquence. This time, I have to respond:

There are many good Kenpoists who are doing good Kenpo who do not "keep the principles alive and accurate" and instead teach an older form of Kenpo learned from Mr. Parker or the Tracy's where articulation of the principles is not the main teaching vehicle.

Yes, I understand that, however, Principles are principles old or new they don't change. Missing a few maybe that were discovered or outlined in later years yes..... but not alive.


Old Fat Kenpoka.....
There are also many with very deep knowledge of the system who feel very strongly that the Kenpo OUTLINED in Infinite Insights, that Mr. Parker taught to them in great detail, needs no alteration or enhancement.

Yes, I understand that as well, but those that you speak of..... did not learn the lessons of Ed Parker well if they take that attitude. He told everyone himself... to be a thinker not just a follower (yet he was wise enough to realize that the human race has both) that is why he worked so hard to lay out a "Base" curriculum for all to use (some more than others) yet also an equation formula to be able to expand variably any and all of the material he worked on and expected us to carry on after..

Behold the 9th Purple Belt saying....... "Knowledge is BOUND when one is compelled to tradition..... Knowledge is endless when tradition is bound". This applies to our system as well!


Old Fat Kenpoka.....
Here, I think you have a great insight, but lineage cannot always predict realty. There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parker’s path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.

Again, yes you are right. When I speak of lineage, I mean the instructors methodology of teaching the said material completely to the student base, which is critical. If the teacher does not set forth a good training platform for the student physically, mentally and spiritually..... then yes, you will end up with much fragmentation and a lot lost in translation. Usually, (not always) apples fall close to the tree.... but yes I agree with you .... some do roll downhill to the sewer.

:asian:

p.s. BTW....It's ok to differ... completely or partially.... just do it in a respectful manner to debate your points. Progress was not possible due to the stubborn belief in the established traditional system...... and thank you for the compliment!

:uhyeah:

 

[Ceicei]

Huh? I go to work-out and return back to find people still discussing whether Kenpo has anything for groundwork or whether Kenpo should be taught "the way it is" and instead cross-train with another art.

Why should we underestimate Kenpo?

Just a few things to consider:

Do pressure points change just because the attacker and defender are on the ground? No. Do principles and concepts (contouring, borrowed force, opposing forces, etc.) go out the window because of being horizontal? No.

Techniques are just that--templates of motions that incorporate different principles and concepts.

True, much of Kenpo is a stand-up fighting art, but to imply Kenpo has no application to the ground overlooks the versatility and a lack of understanding of or insufficient exploration of these principles and concepts.

Mr. Edmund Parker believed in the Kenpoist being able to adapt and use what is learned, even if we are upside down--in other words, make Kenpo fit our needs, not us to fit the needs of Kenpo.

If we restrict ourselves to only what is taught in the manuals and fail to follow his encouragement to create freestyle techniques, then we are doing American Kenpo a disservice.

What is to stop us from making freestyle techs be groundfighting ones?

Will there never be a situation when the defender has to fight on the ground? To ignore this is to ignore reality.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Huh? I go to work-out and return back to find people still discussing whether Kenpo has anything for groundwork or whether Kenpo should be taught "the way it is" and instead cross-train with another art.

Why should we underestimate Kenpo?

Just a few things to consider:

Do pressure points change just because the attacker and defender are on the ground? No. Do principles and concepts (contouring, borrowed force, opposing forces, etc.) go out the window because of being horizontal? No.

Techniques are just that--templates of motions that incorporate different principles and concepts.

True, much of Kenpo is a stand-up fighting art, but to imply Kenpo has no application to the ground overlooks the versatility and a lack of understanding of or insufficient exploration of these principles and concepts.

Mr. Edmund Parker believed in the Kenpoist being able to adapt and use what is learned, even if we are upside down--in other words, make Kenpo fit our needs, not us to fit the needs of Kenpo.

If we restrict ourselves to only what is taught in the manuals and fail to follow his encouragement to create freestyle techniques, then we are doing American Kenpo a disservice.

What is to stop us from making freestyle techs be groundfighting ones?

Will there never be a situation when the defender has to fight on the ground? To ignore this is to ignore reality.

- Ceicei

Wow.... I've been waiting for you Obi Wan..... we meet again at last..... when I left I was but the Student..... now .. lol

 

[MJS]

In our school we address the "going to the ground issue" but we haven’t created any techniques specifically for the ground. We basically focus on how to defend ourselves while were down and the most proficient way to return to our feet.

Yes, thank you!!! This is also something that I have said thousands of times. At least have the knowledge to get back to your feet!!

Mike

 

[Mr. Grimm]

I...I...I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.

Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another: Al Tracy with Shootfighting, John McSweeney with Judo, John Sepulveda with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., etc. Some Kenpoists are trying to apply their Kenpo techniques directly onto the ground--with mixed results. Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.

As Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Submission Wrestling grow in popularity and availability, it behooves every Kenpoist to take a class or attend a seminar to get some basic idea of what the grapplers think and do. I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.

Now thats what I'm talking about!

 

[parkerkarate]

I do not know what belt you curently are, but I will leave you with a few techniques.

- Dance of Death
- Trusting Wedge with the extension
- Obscure Wing's extension
- Twisted Twig

and many others, just think about those, if you do not understand what parts I am talking about, just ask and I will explain further.

And I am not yelling so don't feel that I am mad

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

parkerkarate:

You've missed about a year of inane banter on the groundfighting thing (with me as a primary inane poster). The question is not about doing any of those techniques on someone. The question is how to fight back when someone is trying to do them on you!

 

[parkerkarate]

improv's?

 

[RCastillo]

Mr. Grimm:

This is my favorite topic on this forum. I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year. Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:

Kenpo is not lacking.
1) Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.
2) Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations.
3) Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
4) The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.

Kenpo is lacking.
1) Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique. Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate. Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
2) Kenpo training is not alive enough. Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
3) Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.

I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.

Stop it Mr. Wortman, you're making me look bad here on what Kenpo lacks! :uhyeah:

 

[RCastillo]

First of all Mr. C. stop using me as a "bad example " for Kenpo, second, Mr. Wortman, I don' like soy, and wasabi on my eats. Lastly, what we need is a good looking leader like myself, so I'm nominating me! That should end the controversy right there! :lookie:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wait a minute here! I thought I was the bad example for Kenpo. :fart: