What is it with teachers?

[CatNap]

I've been looking for Bak Mei in my city, Boston. Two people who teach the style, Larry Wong of Nam Pai in Chinatown and Wayne Chin of God knows where - don't teach it. I should say, they're not accepting students, so I'm told. I heard that through Larry Wong about Sifu Chin. Nam Pai charges $90 a month for five days a week, but not in Bak Mei, not sure when it's taught but it's not five days a week - you have to pay that cost for everything you don't want to learn whether you study for an hour with him or every day during th week. If you don't live in Boston or work there - too bad, no exceptions. Wayne Chin - who knows?

I'm told it's a "Chinese thing" not to teach the public, which I think is crap. Nam Pai does teach but they won't admit to what until you pay for everything whether you don't need it or want it. I think it's not wanting to teach women or those that don't earn enough to line your pocket. I'm a good student, loyal, I don't want to start a school - I just love martial arts. Why do you suppose people act like bastards without even taking a moment to meet you to decide if you're worth it?

Rant off......

 

[MA-Caver]

If they're acting that way... do you REALLY want to learn from them? I wouldn't. I'd find someone I can learn from with whom I can get along with and isn't being a jerk or has the attitude(s) you're describing.
You're a paying customer when you're signing your check as well as the contract. You should know exactly what it is you're paying for, you should get exactly what you want to be paying for. If not... walk away and find someone else (qualified) who will.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Doesn't sound like a "Chinese thing" to me. It sounds like a money thing to me. There also sounds like a lot of macho wrapped up in martial arts "traditions" as well. You might be dealing with some greedy people who have seen one too many kung fu movies.

 

[Blindside]

I'm told it's a "Chinese thing" not to teach the public, which I think is crap. Nam Pai does teach but they won't admit to what until you pay for everything whether you don't need it or want it. I think it's not wanting to teach women or those that don't earn enough to line your pocket. I'm a good student, loyal, I don't want to start a school - I just love martial arts. Why do you suppose people act like bastards without even taking a moment to meet you to decide if you're worth it?

Why do you think they should teach you?

Seriously, why?

Maybe their student load is full right now.

Maybe they consider Bak Mei (whatever the hell that is) to be an advanced art, and it would be better to start with something else as a foundation art.

Maybe they don't like students dictating to them, the instructor, what they will and will not learn.

As a prospective student, you don't have the right to demand instruction from me as a potential teacher. You have the right to ask, and I have the right to say "bugger off." I have no obligation to share with you or anyone else what I know, that I choose to is my right.

I don't really ever seeing myself doing that, but I reserve that right.

Lamont

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why do you suppose people act like bastards without even taking a moment to meet you to decide if you're worth it?

If they will not talk to you, who told you all this stuff and how do you know any of this for sure?

And why Bak Mei and nothing else they can teach you?


Chinese sifus if born raised and traditionally trained in China can be interesting and they have different ways of thinking about students and training, I currently have 2 but neither is all that interested in money and both are very good at their styles.

One has been training just 1 style for over 50 years and the other has been training only one style for over 30 years. One has formal classes but does not advertise and the other does not have formal classes and does not advertise and he will not teach the public.

However my first sifu who I no longer train with who was trained at a Physical Education University in China is very interested in money and that is his main focus. He charges by the year, NO REFUNDS and to be honest he is not worth the price but he has a rather large number of students and gives out meaningless certificates like crazy. He too will tell people why they should not or cannot go train with others in the area and I Know for a fact the others in the area do not talk to him at all so how does he know this? He doesn't, he just wants the unsuspecting persons cash.

As to it being a Chinese thing not to teach the public, maybe yes, maybe know, but it depends on the teacher and in some cases as with one of my sifus they have good reason not to as far as they are concerned and that is the way it is deal with it. Does not matter man woman or child he will not teach to the public and he personal feelings on this issue are the reason and to be honest I agree with his way of thinking on this issue.

As for paying for what you don't want to learn. Here is a bit of advice on traditional CMA sifus. You do not tell them what you want to learn because they know better than you what you need to learn to get where you want to go. And to be 100% honest they do really know more about it than many of their students do. Americans in general do not like being told what they can and cannot learn but that is the way it is and if you do not like it I suggest you look for another sifu or another style.

If you are approaching any real, traditional CMA sifu with the attitude of I want to learn this and only this, or you don’t need the rest of the stuff just this style or this application, they will likely tell you they are not excepting students. In their opinion you already have the wrong attitude and they will not waste their time.

Also if you or anyone approaches my sifu that does teach the public at certain times and say I want to start classes he to will tell you he is not taking any new students right now. But he will also tell you when to come back if you are still interested.

As to the $90 and month, compared to what my fist CMA sifu charges that is cheap. But compared to what I pay for my other 2 sifus together that is rather expensive.

Also the age of the sifu can make a difference and the area of CHina they learned in can make a difference in thier style of teaching and how much they actually say.

You may want to get a copy of "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung-Fu by Adam Hsu". It will give you a little insight into traditionally trained Chinese sifus that teach Chinese martial arts and save you a bit of frustration.

EDIT:

Another book you may want to consider

The Making of a Butterfly: Traditional Chinese Martial Arts As Taught by Master W. C. Chen by Phillip Starr

 

[AceHBK]

A lot of good advice in this thread.
Xue Sheng hits on a lot of good points.

Also Bak Mei isn't taught everywhere and it is very hard to find a teacher and I'm sure they know this.

 

[kidswarrior]

Agree with everything above, plus this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei seems to suggest there may be some animosity between Bak Mei and some other CMA's (Gee, imagine that ), so the instructors may have had some bad experiences with other schools/instructors already. They may just want to know they aren't going to be dealing with it again.

 

[gblnking]

Here's a bit of advice learned by myself the hardway, find another school/style. Stay far away from the drama and politics so well imbedded within TMA's. "Closed door" teaching probably breaks down a style that can't hold itself up in a consumer based economy.

 

[jks9199]

Too many people seem to think they have a right to dictate their training or demand any training they want...

These teachers may have legitimate reasons for how they teach. They may have as many students as they care to handle -- or they may require you to prove yourself before you learn Bak Mei. You may need to develop specific skills before you can learn.

But the truth it's simple. It's their job and their right to decide which students -- and how to train them. They know -- and you do not. How can you know how you should be taught a particular style? (This is not the same as deciding that particular training is inadequate or unrealistic or just inappropriate for your own goals...)

 

[Taijiman]

Teachers have a right to pick and choose their students rather than teaching anyone who asks. That IS a "Chinese" thing, though I'd say Americans do that too. We have entry requirements, tryouts, and so on for schools and sports teams... why can't martial arts be the same way? Not everyone can excel at certain things due to physical, personality, or time related reasons, and some teachers don't like wasting their time on people who are just going to disappear or never put the work in to get past a certain level. If they want to charge a flat rate like a gym membership rather than work prices around your schedule, they're perfectly fine doing that too. Many organizations do that for non-martial arts activities. It's not that unusual. And not accepting new students is common in most classes. A teacher not wanting to go over a certain class size is a good thing (just like in regular school). He/she has more time per student, and can turn out a higher quality product.

As for not advertising certain things until after someone's already started in a certain program... sometimes teachers have something that's more rare and they want to make sure it's passed on in a very high quality, or it may be more difficult to learn. Some guys will have a certain martial art that they just don't feel like wasting time teaching a bunch of people who most likely won't be there very long. My old teacher was like that with some things he knows. Didn't offer group classes or advertise it, and if you did want to learn the system, he'd demand more of you (time and effort wise) and warn you not to waste his time if you don't plan on following through. You have no right whatsoever to demand to pick and choose what you learn like when you're ordering a McDonalds value meal. If you don't like it, too bad. Find something else to do.

 

[harlan]

1. Would the original poster feel any different if the style was taught for free? Meaning, is it the assumption that one's money is enough to open doors?

2. To post negative things on the internet about people that one hasn't met, or hearsay, and to 'name names' says a lot about one's mindset. If you are looking for 'reasons' to understand, maturity could be one of them.

 

[Flying Crane]

Some things the sifu holds close, and doesn't teach to just anyone. You need to become a student, and prove to him that you are worth his effort and time to teach you. If you are patient, dedicated, and willing to learn, even the other things, at some point he may decide to teach you bak mei. Or he may not. It's his decision.

 

[empresa]

I agree with the last poster. Many times there are two sets of students... one for commercial Karate where you pay, and learn for x amount of time, and get belts as a reward (witness some schools that are black belt factories with ten year old black belts LOL) while the students who "get it" may be learning something completely different. In my background, I was being taught Kun Tao with maybe six others, and was teaching Ishin Ryu to maybe thirty or forty youngsters as payment for the real classes. No one needs to teach anything, or anyone they do not want to at anytime, yet, I feel for you in that it seems as though you really want to learn that style, and if I guess right, you will find the right teacher when the universe knows you are ready. Meanwhile, why don't you go and find an Iki-Jitsu dojo and learn a bit of that? That is the style I always wish I had learned.
Good Luck.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

... Nam Pai does teach but they won't admit to what until you pay for everything whether you don't need it or want it. I think it's not wanting to teach women or those that don't earn enough to line your pocket. I'm a good student, loyal, I don't want to start a school - I just love martial arts. Why do you suppose people act like bastards without even taking a moment to meet you to decide if you're worth it?

Rant off......

Rant is just what you've done. I agree with Xue and the others. What makes you think that you know what you need to learn and what you don't need to learn? Why do you need training if you know so much already?

Do you think you are better than anyone else when it comes to martial training? Your profile says you practice Wing Chun, is this why you think you know better than these instructors what you need and that they should feel privileged to teach you?

It sounds like you went to them with attitude and they both decided to get you away from their doors as quickly as possible. :dramaqueen: