What is considered Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ etc)

[wkmark]

As some of you are aware, I posted earlier 2 vidoes of my recent Full Contact Ving Tsun Competition. Although my opponent was not really doing Ving Tsun (according to me that is), nevertheless since I didn't know him and I had no idea of his martial arts background, thus I fought the way I would have fought anyone in a competition; and that was to apply my training and tried to enter this fight using what I knew. Which was to do things that was Simple, Direct, and Effective.

Obviously given this was my first time, the videos helped me to put myself in a microscope and see what I did wrong and what I could have done better to improve myself, which was really what the competition was all about. Of course after I posted up the vidoes, I have heard various comments mostly good (thank god) but some that was the usual expected questions (where is the Ving Tsun? Where is the Tan So, Where is the elbow down? Where is the bong sau, Where is the Fok Sau etc...) Luckily no one asked me where the Lap Sao was coz i actually did it right at the beginning of the fight. =P

This got me thinking... In our training, we do our bong sau.. tan sau, etc. But yet in our full contact where we are (or at least me) trying to end the fight as fast as possible by attacking the most simple, direct and effective way. Why are people expecting to see the Tan sao, the Bong Sau, etc? If my opponent is not doing Wing Chun and his center is wide open like in the video, my most effective way was to fight towards the center (my center) keeping my hands in the inside and forcing his to the outside (where his punches does less damage) It answers the question "Is it Direct? Yes/ Is it Simple? Yes/ and is it Effective? Yes. So just because I did not use a Tan Sao, or Bong Sao, does this NOT qualify as Ving Tsun?

The elbows down is understandable and I admit that during the fight there were times that my elbows were out, but given the moving situation and we are human beings, we make errors. It tends to happen. My point was to make contact with him and not to be restrained by Ving Tsun. Not to be bound by it. There are theories and principles to comply to but it's does not mean that they are set in stone. If the opportunities are there, why wouldn't I take it?

So in the end, I want to ask each of you, when you are looking at people doing full contact fights or sparring in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun) what do you consider it to be or NOT to be Ving Tsun?

Please don't take me wrong, I am not at all upset by people's criticisms, but I really want to understand what people's perception of Ving Tsun is supposed to look like. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.

 

[WC_lun]

When I look at someone trading hands I look for Wing Chun concepts to be followed. If those concepts aren't being followed it isn't Wing Chun. If they are being followed, I don't care what techniques are being used. Bong sau, lap sau, tan sau, tan da, wu sau, etc are all just techniques. Who cares what technique you use?! Did you get the job done? That is the point.

Specifically some things I look for is the footwork beng used to get in a supurior position? Is the body moving as one unit? Is there awareness of body position in relationship to solid structure and triangulation? Is the person being efficient? Is the opponent being put into a position that they must recover? If these things are all answers to the positive then I view it as good Wing Chun. If these things have answers to the negative then more work needs to be done. For me personally, I rarely get everything perfect so there is always more training to do.

 

[hunt1]

wkmark before I answer i have a question for you. Going up the center as you did how quickly were you able to end the fight? How many potential stray fingers to the eye of punches to the face and head did your face guard/head gear protect you from?

There maybe other ways to look at direct,simple efficient.

 

[wkmark]

Going up the center obviously did not end the fight as fast as I had hoped. During the first 20 seconds of the fight i had punches that some were connecting and some weren't. I then realized that I was aiming towards the face area but actually punching a bit above. When we reset, I tried to aim lower, towards the neck area because when i made contact, it was actually towards the jaw area. This may have been because as I was moving in, my punches were forcing him to lose balance, thus his head was starting to tilt back. Resulting in my punches hitting him in the jaw. (or could be that my stance was not well rooted) There were moments that I did have to adjust the punches just a bit higher to not hit the neck and to not result in a warning on my side.

As for the stray fingers, or punches, they were really hitting the top of my head or to the side rather than anywhere near my eyes. Did the helmet helped, to be honest I really did not know since I did not felt anything coming close to my eyes.

I greatly agree that there are more than 1 ways to be simple, direct, and effective. I was just asking in a sense as to how come people always need to see a Tan Sao, or Bong Sau or Fok Sau or what nots to consider the movements to be warranted as Ving Tsun. If we didn't perform it in full contact fighting, does that mean that all the drills that we have done in our training have not made it worthwhile? Of course I have my own observations and ideas from this, I was just trying to open this up for discussions and trying to see what others have discovered.

wkmark before I answer i have a question for you. Going up the center as you did how quickly were you able to end the fight? How many potential stray fingers to the eye of punches to the face and head did your face guard/head gear protect you from?

There maybe other ways to look at direct,simple efficient.

 

[hunt1]

The core of wing chun is standing grappling but you are looking at it as a boxing method. That is why the drills we have all done and the shapes of bong etc don't come out when you are boxing as in your vid.

Don't get me wrong bong etc do have boxing uses as well as grappling but you are not there yet there fore you don't see it coming out.

Start at the beginning , first drill we all learn is bong lap. What is it? It is a grappling skill developer. Wing Chun wants to strike while grappling.

Look at the drill one person pulls your wrist and punches your response is to bong. You are learning to bong your elbow up when your wrist is pulled, a grappling defense. Wrist up when elbow attacked is the next. When you move on to poon sau etc etc what are you learning? Grappling combined with striking.

So wing chun folks spend most of their time doing bong tan etc etc in a close body grappling drill and then are surprised that the skills or motions do not appear in a boxing environment. To make matters worse most people have been taught body mechanics best suited for boxing in a grappling environment , hence many wing chun folks are easily taken down when faced with grappling.

Nothing wrong with center line punching. The others things you have heard of or been taught, control the center of gravity, calm mind, relaxed not tense, etc will bring out the shapes you are looking for once you are comfortable in a boxing setting.

Bong etc are used and will come out naturally in a boxing situation once their use is learned. It's just that most teachers seem to keep the methods hidden until the end of instruction

 

[zepedawingchun]

What you did was simple, direct, and effective, if not a bit sloppy. Did it look like Wing CHun? Well, it depends on what you thing WC should look like. I say, yes. But it didn't look like what my WC looks like, or what other members on the forums WC looks like. It should look different for every one of us. If you were expecting to use tan, bong, fook, etc. hand positions, then you should have let your opponent pressure you.

You did some things right (in a WC way) and a few things wrong.

There were three things that I saw you did that almost every WC student has problems with until they get comfortable with getting into a fight or competition:

1. Didn't keep your elbows down and in when executing your punches (everyone noticed that). A lot of times that is because students are trying too hard to execute their battle punches and don't see them being as effective as they think they should be.

2. Too much weight on your front foot, being too upright and forward, leaning, more on your toes, and not sitting back, sinking, rooting to the ground with your back or rear foot as you should (I think a few forum members stated that too).

3. I could see you were too anxious to end the fight, too much nervous energy, instead of trying to stay calm and collected so it you could allow your technique to flow from you naturally and be spontaneous in its execution, you were too upright, forward, trying to run your opponent over, instead of controlling your structure and position. In other words, you weren't in control of you. That is something you will get with time, experience, and comfortable with the situation.

Remember the first time you sparred in class, you were all nervous and excited, worried you might get hurt or screw up and look like an idiot. But now (if you have a bit of experience sparring) when you spar, it's no big deal, you look at it like it's a drill you've done many, many times before. It may even be fun now to spar. So you're able to think and see what your opponent is trying to do to you.

It's the same when you do a competition. Especially the first few times. You have all this nervous energy and you're a bit scared. So you do a lot of things wrong at first. Then, after you're done several competitions, you're more comfortable with getting into the ring, you're more relaxed, you don't let it bother you too much, you're able to see, think, feel everything you need to do to make your technique follow through correctly. It's no longer a big deal and your able to focus on letting your WC just come out of you. You just need time and experience.

Also, WC is about being defensive, counter attacking when your opponent commits to a technique and striking them when it is too late to counter your attack. Once you have control, then you become as offensive as possible. Instead, you started out too offensive, trying to take control of the fight immediately.

If you would have done what I list above, then, most likely, you would have looked like what you think WC should look like in the ring.

Just telling you what I saw.

 

[WC_lun]

Zepeda, that's a great post and very true.

 

[wtxs]

So in the end, I want to ask each of you, when you are looking at people doing full contact fights or sparring in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun) what do you consider it to be or NOT to be Ving Tsun?

Please don't take me wrong, I am not at all upset by people's criticisms, but I really want to understand what people's perception of Ving Tsun is supposed to look like. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.

All WC lineage shares an common core, being human gives rise to unique individual interpretation of it. some people get too idealistic about WC applications and what it should look like under pressure. Lets get real, we know it will not look like is was in an training setting.

WK - give yourself a pat on the back for having the guts to get out there and test your interpretation of WC, learn and enjoy the experience, don't concern yourself of what others might think of what you do is WC'ish.:soapbox:

 

[WC_lun]

It never looks like the movies, does it?

 

[BloodMoney]

- Simultaneous attack and defense
- Conservation of energy
- Economy of movement

 

[wkmark]

Hunt1- Thank you for your feedback. Perhaps it's different interpretation of of Wing Chun. I am under the Wong Shun Leung Method. Mind I ask you which lineage you are under. I have heard of other mentioning that in their interpretation of Wing Chun was a standing grappling, but I wasn't sure which lineage that was under. However maybe because Sifu Wong Shun Leung had a background in boxing and less grappling, thus his interpretation of Wing Chun was more boxing like. No right or wrong, I was just trying to understand more that's all. Thank you again for your comments.

The core of wing chun is standing grappling but you are looking at it as a boxing method. That is why the drills we have all done and the shapes of bong etc don't come out when you are boxing as in your vid.

Don't get me wrong bong etc do have boxing uses as well as grappling but you are not there yet there fore you don't see it coming out.

Start at the beginning , first drill we all learn is bong lap. What is it? It is a grappling skill developer. Wing Chun wants to strike while grappling.

Look at the drill one person pulls your wrist and punches your response is to bong. You are learning to bong your elbow up when your wrist is pulled, a grappling defense. Wrist up when elbow attacked is the next. When you move on to poon sau etc etc what are you learning? Grappling combined with striking.

So wing chun folks spend most of their time doing bong tan etc etc in a close body grappling drill and then are surprised that the skills or motions do not appear in a boxing environment. To make matters worse most people have been taught body mechanics best suited for boxing in a grappling environment , hence many wing chun folks are easily taken down when faced with grappling.

Nothing wrong with center line punching. The others things you have heard of or been taught, control the center of gravity, calm mind, relaxed not tense, etc will bring out the shapes you are looking for once you are comfortable in a boxing setting.

Bong etc are used and will come out naturally in a boxing situation once their use is learned. It's just that most teachers seem to keep the methods hidden until the end of instruction

 

[wkmark]

Yes, Zepeda Thank you for your input.

Zepeda, that's a great post and very true.

 

[wkmark]

Thank you for your comments.

All WC lineage shares an common core, being human gives rise to unique individual interpretation of it. some people get too idealistic about WC applications and what it should look like under pressure. Lets get real, we know it will not look like is was in an training setting.

WK - give yourself a pat on the back for having the guts to get out there and test your interpretation of WC, learn and enjoy the experience, don't concern yourself of what others might think of what you do is WC'ish.:soapbox:

 

[wkmark]

Haha... Everyone always hopes it looks like the movies. I guess If we all fought in slow motion, we can make it look like the movies. =P

It never looks like the movies, does it?

 

[pmosiun1]

As some of you are aware, I posted earlier 2 vidoes of my recent Full Contact Ving Tsun Competition. Although my opponent was not really doing Ving Tsun (according to me that is), nevertheless since I didn't know him and I had no idea of his martial arts background, thus I fought the way I would have fought anyone in a competition; and that was to apply my training and tried to enter this fight using what I knew. Which was to do things that was Simple, Direct, and Effective.

Obviously given this was my first time, the videos helped me to put myself in a microscope and see what I did wrong and what I could have done better to improve myself, which was really what the competition was all about. Of course after I posted up the vidoes, I have heard various comments mostly good (thank god) but some that was the usual expected questions (where is the Ving Tsun? Where is the Tan So, Where is the elbow down? Where is the bong sau, Where is the Fok Sau etc...) Luckily no one asked me where the Lap Sao was coz i actually did it right at the beginning of the fight. =P

This got me thinking... In our training, we do our bong sau.. tan sau, etc. But yet in our full contact where we are (or at least me) trying to end the fight as fast as possible by attacking the most simple, direct and effective way. Why are people expecting to see the Tan sao, the Bong Sau, etc? If my opponent is not doing Wing Chun and his center is wide open like in the video, my most effective way was to fight towards the center (my center) keeping my hands in the inside and forcing his to the outside (where his punches does less damage) It answers the question "Is it Direct? Yes/ Is it Simple? Yes/ and is it Effective? Yes. So just because I did not use a Tan Sao, or Bong Sao, does this NOT qualify as Ving Tsun?

The elbows down is understandable and I admit that during the fight there were times that my elbows were out, but given the moving situation and we are human beings, we make errors. It tends to happen. My point was to make contact with him and not to be restrained by Ving Tsun. Not to be bound by it. There are theories and principles to comply to but it's does not mean that they are set in stone. If the opportunities are there, why wouldn't I take it?

So in the end, I want to ask each of you, when you are looking at people doing full contact fights or sparring in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun) what do you consider it to be or NOT to be Ving Tsun?

Please don't take me wrong, I am not at all upset by people's criticisms, but I really want to understand what people's perception of Ving Tsun is supposed to look like. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.

Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?

 

[WC_lun]

Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?

You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.

 

[wkmark]

Thank you. I didn't even bother to reply that because no matter what, it will be an un-constructive response.

You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.

 

[mook jong man]

Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?

Yeah great , then he can learn to fight with big fat frigging pillows on his hands and get metacarpal fractures from punching with an inferior structure when he finally does hit flesh and bone bare handed.

 

[bully]

You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.

He seems to have done lots of one liners on different areas of the forum looking at his last posts...maybe and attempt at humour or too much of Grandmas cough medcine?

Back on topic, my WC wont look like WC when I am sparring because everything goes to rat **** when I am under pressure. Not enough experience is my problem. I think alot of WC guys do not spar enough but also feel that we should not chuck raw novices right into the mix until they get their shapes and foot work drilled a bit.

 

[l_uk3y]

In terms of WC sparring there are numerous interpretations I have come across whether it be seen in person or seen on the internet. As a general rule, Most videos I've seen look very much like Boxing's ugly brother.

When I think WC vs WC sparring. I like to see a few main goals in mind.

If an obvious gap is left. Launch an attack and whether it be punch or kick entry. After that reaccess whether to keep attacking and driving forward with strikes. Or whether to start using blocks/positioning to trap limbs sneaking in the odd strike here and there whilst aiming to create the next opening before moving back into an all out striking approach. (Repeat as necessary).

If no major options are available from the get go. Move forward to gain contact and move straight to the phase of trying to trap limbs and work your way into a better position.

Theory of economy of movement. No point continually charging forward punching if there is no suitable target available. If the door is open. You can walk through it. If the door is closed then you have to open it before you can walk through. (Unless you are all powerful of course )



Please be aware that whilst I am training a few students and have about 7 years of WC behind me. I am not a fully qualified student and don't have any Sifu status or the like. Maybe in the near future I'll try and get a few videos of us training to get some Critique from other schools on here and compare notes. (Our Sifu took off a couple of years ago and left us all behind without mentioning a thing to us. Hence why making do with what we have)


Cheers.

Luke